"Instigating an attack, even a poorly veiled one (such as the subtitle of this thread WAS called paired with the posts selected to be transfered over) is not permitted - moderator, or no."

Apparently, calling some comments racist, is a "pooly veiled attack"

You don't say that when someone calls someone a biggot for using the word "gay" as an insult, a "poorly velied attack" Why is this a poorly velied attack?

You also stated that we have to talk like adults and not children, however, I don't think anything here was said "like children", especially when I'm trying to defend myself against hate mongering.

Simmi for example, can not tell the difference between a fact of "Israel's creation was aribrarty and ludicrous" and "Israel's creation was the result of a long conflict, planned and calculated"

That is not a matter of "opinion."

Calling others racist in a subtitle is a poorly veiled attack, especially if you do it just because they don't neccessarily agree with everything you say, which seems to be the case here.

Calling someone racist for that reason is childish, pure and simple. I'm not going to close this thread this time, but I would strongly suggest you allow yourself time to cool down before continuing on with discussing this topic.

Passion is fine, but unneeded aggression in it is going to get you in deep trouble if you don't get that passion in check. I think it's obvious to everyone you are very concerned about the topic at hand. It doesn't give you the prerogative to be a jerk, though.

Just curious maybe I am reading to much into this but...
Daganev you said "Jewish Militia groups"
How is a "Militia Group' and a "Terrorist Group" different? I was taught in school that fundamentalism in any religion can lead to negative consequences for uninvolved parties...perhaps this is so, what do you think?

No BUT Simimi can tell you the difference between a Malaysian Islamic Jihad Mujarhadeen and a Burmese Special Ops Patrol Bomber just by their facial structure and how they say "Hello"
whats that Dags... what you could not do this? Huh?
But, Simimi DOES know the difference between oh let me see... Burmse bomb and a Laotian/Khmer or Malaysian one?
Oh yea...the difference, a Burmese one is attached to a Child.

You see, I am trying my DAMN'IST to understand your so called "conflict" and you are saying that "i can not even understand the difference between" ... Not that I do not have the ability to understand, I have never had that experience. What goes on in Palastine and Irael between Hamas and "Your People" does not mean to MY PEOPLE. Does that mean we do not care? No I'm sure some of us care, but it does not directly affect us, we do not talk about or learn of it in school, and I never saw a "Person of the Jewish Faith" until I came to University here in the U.S.A. .

It would help if you put aside your hot heart and dawned the cool heart of a Thai and actually tried to explain to me where you are coming from. I'm sure you know little to nothing about the centuries of boarder war with the Burmese, or Laotians, or the Khmer, or how we are at war with Malaysians who blow up and murder school Children in the south. Why....because, it does not affect YOU, or YOUR PEOPLE.

And...just to clarify....no where did I make a statement to agree with either person's viewpoint that Israel came about in any way,shape, or form, I simply want to know where the conflict here is.
Forgive me for seeking knowledge, I appologize if I have offended you or your people.
love-mimi

Here is the BIG difference between a Mlitia Group, and a Terrorist group.

A Malitia group post a GIANT Poster, that says, "At 2PM on Sunday, we are going to Take control of this building, it is our new headquarters, Anybody who is not loyal to our group will be kept away by force if Necessary" Obviously this building is something that other people want, and so at 2PM on Sunday there is a fight between the two groups who want control of that building.


A Terrorist group however, finds the nearest group of school children, and begins to kill them all. Then after the 'battle' they make a GIANT poster and say "Your Children have been killed because we want that building for our new headquarters, now give it to us"

Miltia groups when they want to control a Road way, post a Large Sign and say "We control this roadway, enter at your own risk" and then post visible guards next to the sign.

A Terrorist group when they want to control a roadway get an Icreceam truck and drive down the road. When children come to buy the icecream, they blow up the van.


Viravain, you may think that I'm just arguing because people don't agree with me, however that is not the case, and if you would just click on those links I posted yo uwould see that the phrases used by the posts which caused me to open the thread use words and phrases that are OFTEN used to spread hate and claim that I have no right to exist.

I don't care if you think I'm passionate or whatever, what I do care about are lies being spread as "academic truth" instead of the lies that they are. This is not an issue of beleifs, or opinions, these are facts that either did or did not happen, and I REALLY don't like you attacking me, just because I'm trying to defend myself.

And saying "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are Jewish" REALLY doesn't help. This is not the first time people have made such comments.




You missunderstood me, and I appreciate you trying to learn the Truth. The reason I brought you up was because I was using you as an example of why I can't just "let things slide" or "not respond to lies"... because I know there are people on these forums who do not know the facts because they have no connection to them, and I do not want lies being spread even further.

You did not insult me in any shape or form... People saying that I'm being Childish and "Abusing my mod privs, because I start a thread that calls something what it is" does insult me.

Oh...ok then, that's that then I suppose...thanks hun.

Whoa... I am very ignorant on most of the historyand subtleties of political intrigue throughout the Israel/Palestine area, but I don't know if it necessarily indicates racism to say there are problems there. (And to demonstrate my ignorance, I didn't even realize Jewishness was a race, I thought it was just a religion, heh. )

Maybe it was a poor choice of words to say 'Israel problem' instead of 'Israel and Palestine problem', but I don't think it was meant to imply blame on one side intentionally.

From a long way away, I just feel sorry for all the people involved... the forced resettlement in my opinion must have been handled awfully by the british/us/whoever else to cause all this continuing conflict, and now its just reached the point where neither side appears willing to compromise or seek viable alternatives to the violence. I know I don't blame one side or the other, I think they're both responsible for the nightmare that the area appears to have become, as well as those that put them in this volatile situation.

I think Viravain has said the most sensible thing so far... we can all see that you're very passionate and informed about these issues, Daganev, because they are so close to you, but you'll argue far more effectively in a calm and rational manner. Besides, we all get a little crazy after being on the forums for too long.

I should point out that the major fighters against the British in Israel are what we call Kibutzniks, they were basically Marxists who thought that Religion was a terrible thing. However they were also sick of being beaten upon by the rest of the world and wanted to have thier own home.

In the end, Israel to this day defines "Who is Jewish" not by any religious law, but by Hitler's standards. The founders of the state of Israel said "If you were Jewish enough to be killed by Hitler, your Jewish enough to live in Israel" This means that anybody who has ever had a Jewish releative, even if its your great grandfather on your father's side, is considered Jewish by Israel... however in the religion of Judaism, they are NOT considered Jewish.

So while religious exteremism in any religion is a bad thing... that line of argument and converstaion don't really apply to Israel, since the law in Israel has never been based on Jewish Law, anymore than laws in America have been based on Christain laws.




Yeah... so apparently your not aware about the whole "Israeli Soldiers forcing Jews out of thier homes in Gaza, because the PA will kill or deny the rights of any Jew living in thier territory" thing...

No compromises???? Israel has given over 50% of its territory to its neighboring countries in hopes that those countries will no longer demand its destruction. It worked for Egypt, and it has worked for Jordan. It did not work for Syria, and appears to not have worked with the palesetians either since Hamas REFUSES to aknowledge Israel, and still demands its distruction. However, Hamas has decided to be 'nice' and offer a 'truce' while they work on taking care of their internal government and see what money Israel is willing to offer them to stop attacking.

These are issues of fact, not opinion... unless you believe that giving away land that you took while defending yourself is not a "compromise" which Iran for example is in the opinion of, since "ISrael doesn't have a right to exist in the first place, so nothing they do short of dismantling the government is a "compromise"

Let me make a clear example... Imagine I said "I don't think its right for those negros (insert worse word here) to get special treatment because its
reverse racism."

Now, that statement as a whole is not particually racist, infact its arguing AGAINST racism... however using the 'N' word, kind of makes the rest of the statement moot, don't you think? And turns the statement into a racist statement. saying "The Israel problem" basically does the same thing.

Oh, and "being Jewish" or "Judaism" is not a religion, or a race, or an ethnic group, or a philosophy... Its all of those and none of those. There are jews who beleive in god and jews who are athiests, there are white jews, and there are black jews, and there are arab jews and persian jews, there are jews who like captialism and there are Jews who like Socialism. It can be best described as "A people" although, as "A People" we existed for many centuries without a unified language or land. There really isn't any way to describe the Jews in one word. I personally, happen to be a Jew who believes in Judaism, and perscribes to the pyschological outlook of Kabbalah, and I happen to be of Russian and European decent... But there are plenty of Jews, who are from China, do not beleive in any religion, and tend to have the outlook on life of a Budhist. And thats pretty much why we always get the short end of the stick, the only place we actually 'belong' is in Israel.

That's pretty interesting... what defines someone as being Jewish, then? Surely there is some common thread that links everyone?


Again, I'm quite ignorant here... could you explain how (I assume the government of Israel) took land while defending themselves?

I like this quote...

I'm tempted to say that each side is going to have atrocities that they view the other as committing, but that while championing one group as only 'defending' its rights against the other might be true, but it isn't the only way of looking at things.

You can come to Thailand, we are a Bhuddist Nation, and we have people of all faiths there, and we do not hate in my country, aslong as you make an effort not to look and behave like a some foreigner backpacker looking for cheap sex, you'll do just fine! ^^
love-mimi

EDIT: Watch your language. ~Shiri~

To answer this, I'm pretty sure no-one used the word 'Israel' or 'Jewish' as an insult.

Viravain.

Im not going to say anything more till I complete more of my World History course but I will say something on something Ive had shoved in my face since I was old enough to read: WW2.

It was wrong on ALL sides, not just the Germans who agreed to fight of their own wills, not just the Americans, the British, the French, the Canadians, anyone else who participated. The Jewish were shoved away from EVERYWHERE, they were pushed into the newly taken over country of Poland through propaganda that they would be put under good care, have nice homes, land, be able to have a family. They were shown wonderful pictures of Poland, of Jewish families that were already there and living happily. Canada alienated the Japanese, Canada pushed away some of the immigrants that tried to come to a safe place. The Nazi's killed the Jewish, pillaged everything they owned, forced them to live in disgusting places and work under constant threat of imminent death. They did this till they killed them, and to this day were still finding concentration camps we never knew about. The victims are long dead, but they are not forgotten. Those that fought lived each day in a battlefield in dirty trenches filled with vermin and disease. They killed people when the fighting broke out no matter who side you look at, they still killed people because they were told those people were 'wrong' 'bad' and in some sense, 'evil'. No side is innocent of doing this, not the Germans and their allies, not the British and their allies, not the neutral countries.

Lifes sad, war overshadows everything. While we hear about the victims every time, we have not forgotten. Not all of us anyways.

Look at some of the laws that the UN have put in, theyve been placed so protect those who are innocent. Hell, they were to help prevent war, better the world, stop world famine, etc.

Now, no more of this. You have the right to your views but we should all respect anothers, or these things will just continue.

Hitler called the exterminating of Jews the "Final sollution to the Jewish Problem"... now a days, they don't say "Jewish Problem" they all say "Israel Problem".. Look it up on Google... You don't see the word "Israel problem" in generally neutral of factual websites, unless they are quoting some Iranian or Palestianian, or Syrian.


I can someone PLEASE show me where I called anyone a racist? I called a theory racist, not any person racist. And yet here I am getting yelled at for calling someone a racist, WHICH NEVER HAPPENED! Why is it that I am attacked when I never said anything against anyone here. I called an idea and a theory racist, I called the community of teachers at my university racist (which even the national news agreed with).. and yet I am told to stop attacking? "Both sides" need to learn to respect eachother? I'll be sure to tell that to the next victim of terrorism. "You need to be more respectfull, then maybe they won't blow up the bus your on."

In Responce to Avaer's question:
Israel took land by defending itself in a very simple manner. It was called the 6 day war... it was only 6 days long so it should not be hard to read the events of every hour and see what happened. Basically, the Israeli Generals said "Stay out of Jeruselem, do not enter the old city".. However during the fighting, the Jordanians flanked the Israelis around the old city of Jersulem forcing the Israelis to enter the old city or die. Once inside the old city, the Israelis defeated the Jordanians who were trying to put them to a siege. Eventually, the Jordanians refused to stop fighting and were kept at the border across the Jordan River. When Israel then tried to give the west bank back to Jordan in exchange for peace, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and a few other countries told Jordan that they can not make peace with Israel, and from that day on, Israel has been stuck fighting the PLO and Hammas.

I'm not sure how a country could be more legeitmate than having a majority of the world VOTING on its existance. How many countries that exist now asked the world to take a vote to see if they should exist or not? If Voting doesn't give a country legitmacy, I would like to know what does.

All I am going to say is that being British I know exactly the context Aiakon was speaking in. When he said Israel Problem. Its like 9/11 was an American Problem and 7/7 and the IRA bombings were a British Problem. It was a Problem that -effected- Israel. NOT a problem -caused- by Israel. In the context of what he said that is what was meant. He was unaware that this coincidentally was used by several Anti-Israel groups, he was only using his language in the way every other Brit does every day of their lives.

EDIT: In fact its just taken me the half hour trip to work to even figure out how the term might be seen as offensive. I never even thought to read it in a way you would hear a Nazi say the "Jew Problem". Thats just not how it reads. I am sure from your perspective where you hear it almost always in a derogatory manner, it immeadiately sounds like that and I can see how offense was caused, but I am almost certain that Aiakon intended it exactly as the way that I read it, because thats just how that context is read and understood by a Brit.

Here we tend to call it the palestinian problem, because my main source of information are actually jews (not religious jews, but blood-jews original from poland, attacked by nazis, emigrated to argentina, attacked by militarist dictatorship, emigrated to here). With some family in Israel who are quite logically quite fanatic against anything remotedly looking like palestinian.

In africa there's still quite a few wars about people wanting to live where their ancestors lived, or wanting to slave those his ancestors sold as slaves, and stuff like that. So the "my people lived there 2000 years ago" isn't a reason to demand a country, because we all have been moving quite a bit. But it has religious significance so I guess it's different.

Also, another good source that isn't anti-semite could be:
- http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

In http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch6.pdf

You can read:



There's also maps on occupation here:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/vMaps
Also by the same UN.

You can have a look at how BOTH sides (now both of them with the backup of their governments) are ignoring human rights:
- http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Just by looking at the titulars.

Don't talk about freedom for women as the sign of israel goodness when:
- http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE150172000
- http://www.nif.org/content.cfm?cat_id=1520&currbody=1


Laws might be all freedom, but if religion has a second say and the law is invalidated it loses all sense.

I think none of the sources is specially anti-semite, but please do correct me if I am wrong.

So, let's admit it's a two sides problem, and not Israel nor Palestina are the good ones, even if you have a big affinity with one of the sides.

And the fact that a thread that started as "Europeans, defend you freedom of speech rights" is splitted, by the same person, in another calling racist anybody not thinking exactly like the moderator, and using words like "The True" with capital T in each of his posts is quite ironic.

I was sort of wondering what the heck you were getting so worked up about the phrase 'Israel problem', it sounds seriously benign to me. I guess if it does equate to a term of biggotry for you and other Jews then it shouldn't be used.

A more correct term would be Palestinian-Israeli-American-Arabic nations-European problem, but then you'd have to be careful in wich order you put them, because maybe for a palestinian seeing the name of their country/nation/organization first it's offensive as allows them more part of the blame. I guess if you add a % of the blame after each name you can get it right, but use %X because you cannot give numbers without offending somebody.

Problem is in Israel, being suffered by Israel people in a geographical area called Israel, then it's the Israel problem. You can also call it the Gaza Problem, the Palestinian Problem, or the MiddleEast Problem, quite safely.

Jew Problem would be more argueable against because obviously not all jews are involved into the problem. Unless the jews were causing problems somewhere (like muslim riots are doing now) and you wanted to use The Jew problem in or The jew problem.

okay... I am sorry but I find it most unfair of all sides taking part in this debate to judge Israel or the Palastenians for that matter. I am an Israeli soldier, and from living here I think I have a bit of a clue as to what goes on here aye?
Israel exists because throughout history, our people found themselves being shunned as minority or, as more recent history showed- killed for the purpose of extinction. The Palastenians currently are in a "fix"- Most of them live in terrible conditions, starvation and abismal social-economical state. Those few who has the ability to learn abroad returned as leaders and as such, they have influence over a people that has not the means to get proper education. So these leaders, supported by other arab countries, use their power to further their own gain. Now, the Islam religion is very much affilated with holy wars- how does it all combine into terrorism? simply. A poor man who'se family has no food nor a place to stay goes to the only place in which he might feel at peace... to prey at their temples. That man is then approached by a certain individual promising him to care for his family for the rest of their lives if that person would go and commit a suicide bombing. The religious sanctify these terrorists as saints... Religion has always been a powerful tool in the wrong hands. The crusades proved that point to a certain degree.
The average palestine is educated to hate the Israelis, they know no better and they can't know better because they lack the tools to stablizie themselves.
Israel cannot provide the money because quite frankly, we barely maintain ourselves. We are on the verge of civil wars because we are betraying our own bretheren and issue the call for thier removal off their homes. I will not accept comments such as "Israel knows not to compromise".
Both people have the right to defend themselves, the holocaust claimed more lives then there are here today in Israel and we will not allow it to happen again- we need and have every right to have a country which is ours to protect.
I have fought against Palestinians, and gained nothing but sorrow out of it... I cannot hate them, but I will not shoot myself in the head because of it.
I doubt I will change anyone's minds, I do however request that you reserve judgement and never place yourselves above others because you are -not- there, you cannot know.
The holocust, the crusades... these are all proves of what can happen to a person when you combine education to hate, religion and racism- it is not only us, every man and woman under these terms mind end up being a mindless killer.
Oren.

You have no minds to change. No one here has said anything which they intended to be either anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish. Everyone here sympathises with the unfortunate position in which both you and Daganev have been placed, and they wish it was not so.

Wait, there's a load of offence taken at the poorly chosen couple of words 'Israel problem', but the above is not racist/religionist/nationist at all?

Anyway, I think Aiakon is right. I think we all sympathise with all the people involved in the conflict.