I don't think it matters anyways. If brought before the Moonhart Circle, The Moon Avatars, and Lady Lisaera - do you honestly think that Shorlen would have a chance IC trying to justify using a Crow Cloak when he went so far as to argue that "stealing" with beam was a terrible, horrible act... but using an item to speak with unnatural creatures made from the feather of a tainted Great Spirit isn't?

He's resourceful - I'm sure that, just like Narsrim (the character), he could find a way to justify one while condeming the other.

And Auseklis would argue that the undead are natural, and that the taint is now a part of nature as well. Auseklis is still viewed as part of the Serenwilde - his view can't be completely ignored, and Shorlen could easily use that to defend himself.

I will also point out, for those who are interested (such as Elryn), that Malicia clearly knew I had it, and Narsrim and Munsia should have as well. They recieved mysterious amnesty from Paavik via Shorlen just before it revolted two revolts ago - there is only one way that can be achieved. That was three of the ten or so members of the Moonhart Circle, right? Why wasn't it brought up? Oh, right - because it didn't support an argument by Narsrim on the forums at the time, and in fact, helped him in an IC fashion.

I still think it would turn into a bomb. I think the first major blow is going to be that just because we are Moondancers doesn't mean we turn our back on White Hart, which is essentially what using a crow cloak is doing. Likewise, would you support say Elryn taking Fae to Mother Night?

Shorlen is quite intelligent and resourceful, but I don't think any bag of tricks or words would matter if this came into scrutiny. I mean the fact that you stole it after brining into question other people who steal at times itself is a whole other, but related issue that would cause this to turn sour in a hot second.
Did Auseklis ever say that undead are "natural?" Or is this another assumption?

Did Auseklis ever say that undead are "natural?" Or is this another assumption?

The Paavik ghosts are undead because it is no longer natural for them to remain here. Or something like that.

The ghosts that Serenwilde uses and communicates with are not undead.

I very, very highly doubt that Raven would have accepted undeath, being outside the natural cycle of life and death.

No doubt he would have had strong links to the spirit world, and communing with the dead, however.

So no, its not an assumption - the undead are natural, based on the philosophy of Auseklis.

Undeath != tainted.

Auseklis had stated on numerous occasions that the Taint, and everything it created was now a part of nature. Many of the modern undead were created by the Taint, hence, they are natural. Also, the ghosts of Paavik are completely natural - they are in no way Tainted. They died in horrible ways, and thus their souls linger. That is a very natural process - there was no dark magic involved, simply lots of pain and sorrow.

So no, its not an assumption - the undead are natural, based on the philosophy of Auseklis.

Ever done the Chuchip quest? He basically comes out of a grave. How is that different than Paavik ghosts coming out of paintings?

Here's a challenge - summon Chuchip and analyze him. I bet it says you can't influence the undead.

Ever done the Chuchip quest? He basically comes out of a grave. How is that different than Paavik ghosts coming out of paintings?

Here's a challenge - summon Chuchip and analyze him. I bet it says you can't influence the undead.

Hartstone spirits AREN'T coded as undead, so if he wanted he could just say the universe decides what's undead and what's not.

Hm. Could have fooled me. All those liches in Ankrag, and those zombies in Glomdoring.

The original undead were created by Urlach. They next series of undead were created by the Taint.

Taint and Undeath are linked, but Taint isn't the only source of Undeath. It is one of the sources, however.

Ok, we can call in the Auseklis people on this but that's not what Auseklis said at all. I spoke with Auseklis regarding this several times and here's what I gathered:

Auseklis's opinion was that Glomdoring, which was created by the fusing of the Taint and Nature, was not an anathema to Nature because it in a sense became an evolved/new form of Nature. Auseklis wasn't pro-Taint. He was still opposed to the "taint" that composed Magnagora just that he viewed Glomdoring as different. We would now say that Auseklis was anti-taint, but did not consider the Wyrd tainted.

As for Angkrag (which was brought into question), it is composed of liches exiled from Magnagora. They are not natural. In fact, undeath was not a result of the taint. Urlach, who was the big bad undead guru, was never Tainted. Therefore, it is an indepedent issue entirely from taint.

In sum, Auseklis did not support everything that was Tainted. Likewise, any type of inference that taint = undeath = acceptable is false. The taint and undeath are two entirely different matters.

A song sparrow suddenly bursts into song, warbling out a complex melody, tellingtales of times long past, peoples since forgotten, loves lost and victories painfully bought. Indeed, a song sparrow sings of the ancient histories of the Serenwilde.

Silvery figures arise up from the burial mounds, slowly coming forward to listento the song of a song sparrow. When it is done, they bow their ghostly heads.

One of the ancestral spirits steps forward, raising his translucent hand in greeting.

Chuchip isn't undead - get the program. Lisaera told us IC he wasn't undead. She said OOC on forums he wasn't undead. Therefore, your opinion that he is undead is well, WRONG.

Furthermore, what is your deal with trying to talk with people after they are gone? You first tried to tell me how Aesyra was (and believe me, I will try my damnest to get her to respond just because I don't think she'd like you trying to talk about her and make it clear how "it was") and now Auseklis. I spoke with him several times. I spoke with Lisaera several times about Auseklis. He's wasn't all "geomancer taint is lovely and natural." He was always specific to Glomdoring.

==============================================

And your analogy makes no sense whatsoever. Undeath and Taint are two separate entities. There is no cause-and-effect relationship.

You obviously know better than Lisaera. You, above all, can tell us what is and what is not undead. Who are we to question?

Lisaera can say they are not Undead, but Elryn's defence that the Paavik ghosts are undead because they are lingering unnatural is BS, because they are no different than the Seren ghosts. If Chuchip isn't undead, then there's no logic behind it.

Then again, given how much you bitch about the Admins being wrong about things, I'd say I'm allowed to think Chuchip should be undead.

(Order): Lisaera says, "The ghosts of Paavik are undead."

(Order): You say, "But does that not mean that the spirits of our ancestors are also Undead?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "Undeath is more to do with how you exist than when you do."

(Order): You say, "Well, the souls of the Paavik nobility died many years ago... I am not sure they
are sustained by any necromantic forces, are they?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "No, but they are sustained by an unnatural urge."

(Order): Lisaera says, "The unresolved business they have."

(Order): You say, "I often linger after a hasty death, because I am sustained by an urge to
understand why my attackers have killed me..."

(Order): You say, "Yet I would not call my soul one of the Undead in this case."

(Order): Lisaera says, "That's a temporary lengthening of the time between death and rebirth."

(Order): You say, "Is it not possible the Paavik ghosts may one day find rest... or even rebirth?"

(Order): You say, "Aside from the fact they have unfinished business with the living, is there
anything else that makes them different to other beings beyond the veil of death, m'Lady?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "Other beings such as?"

(Order): You say, "We call on the spirits of our ancestors in the Hartstone quite frequently at
times of need, M'lady... bringing their souls back from wherever death has taken them."

(Order): Lisaera says, "I think one of the problems with your views on the dead is that you believe
the dead intrinsically should not be around the living, whereas the truth is the dead and the living
are the same things at different stages in their cycle."

(Order): You say, "I don't understand how that relates to my concern, Lady."

(Order): Lisaera says, "You're not grasping what the undead actually aare."

(Order): You say, "I see."

(Order): Lisaera says, "They're beings that have been halted in one stage of the cycle of life for a
reason that is contrary to nature's flow."

(Order): Lisaera says, "Being dead is not wrong, being dead when you should be alive is wrong."

(Order): You say, "So our ancestors should be dead, but Paavik's nobility should be alive?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "No, Paavik's nobility should be dead."

(Order): You say, "But they are dead... aren't they?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "Their unnatural refusal to let go of the circumstances of their deaths is
what keeps them from entering fully into death."

(Order): Lisaera says, "No, they are undead."

(Order): Lisaera says, "An undead is something that is held between life and death when it should be
in one or the other."

(Order): You say, "Then when we summon our ancestors back, they are undead?"

(Order): You say, "Because they should be in a state of full death?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "No, they are dead. What you summon isn't them, it's simply their
manifestation, and if they have been summoned by you it is because in nature's cycle their purpose
is to provide guidance."

(Order): Lisaera says, "As I said, it is only wrong if you are not MEANT to be in the state you are
in."

(Order): Lisaera says, "Besides that, the ancestors are not held there, they simply appear to guide
you, as is their purpose, then they retreat to their other purpose."

(Order): You say, "But how do we know the Paavik ghosts are not supposed to be as they are... dead,
and manifesting?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "Firstly, because they're obsessed with only one thing. That is always a
sign. Secondly, because they attempt to stay here in the living world permanently, not just as long
as it is their purpose to do so. Finally, because they have no true purpose here, what do you think
they actually help in nature by being as they are?"

(Order): You say, "I do not think they violate any natural law."

(Order): You say, "Their bodies are rotting, returning to the earth."

(Order): Lisaera says, "They never do return though, they are there permanently."

(Order): You say, "Their spirits linger, perhaps to their detriment, but it is not a corruption of
life or death."

(Order): Lisaera says, "That is exactly what it is. You still only listen to what you want to hear
rather than what is actually said."

(Order): You say, "Ah, their bodies are kept somewhere in Paavik?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "It is wrong if the cycle does not continue."

(Order): Lisaera says, "What do their bodies have to do with anything? I expect their bodies were
long ago eaten away."

(Order): You say, "Oh, I thought You said that they never return."

(Order): Lisaera says, "Yes, they as in their souls."

(Order): You say, "Some adventurers bear the honor of laying those spirits to rest... what does this
mean?"

(Order): Lisaera says, "That temporarily, they manage to set the cycle back into its rightful
course."

Then again, given how much you bitch about the Admins being wrong about things, I'd say I'm allowed to think Chuchip should be undead.

Furthermore, it is worth noting that the a recent surge in Celest are pro-Serens, which is not my doing. Malicia, Triden, Mitch, Letho, Yukari, Yuniko, Athalas, etc. are all former Serens who are all very close to me and Serenwilde to some degree.

And Auseklis would argue that the undead are natural, and that the taint is now a part of nature as well. Auseklis is still viewed as part of the Serenwilde - his view can't be completely ignored, and Shorlen could easily use that to defend himself.

Lisaera can say they are not Undead, but Elryn's defence that the Paavik ghosts are undead because they are lingering unnatural is BS, because they are no different than the Seren ghosts. If Chuchip isn't undead, then there's no logic behind it.