Have you ever heard of semantics? You are trying to debate what the "free" means, when in the end - in doesn't matter!

My logic is what I wrote: Serenwilde, Celest, and Glomdoring (to a lesser extent) cannot match Magnagora in Angkrag because it isn't feasible for any of the 3 to get enough crow cloaks (they cost 10p each and decay rather quickly) to influence all but 5 non-impacting orcs in the village.

While yes, if Magnagora never went to Angkrag, they'd never influence it. While yes! Magnagora isn't be default given the village. But hello, no one else can feasibly (read: FEASIBLY) toe-to-toe influence against Magnagora for it (not to the mention the whole tainted, undead "lets go murder and enslave dwarves" theme is an anathema to Serenwilde/Celest).

End result: Magnagora has and will always have Angkrag if they invest the 30 minutes it takes to influence that village.

Any argument that it isn't "hard coded" is truly a convoluted debate. If something is not anywhere near feasible, it doesn't have to be hard coded.

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And what is up with people having these magic insights into Hajamin and His Order now that He's gone? There were *10* members in Hajamin's Order. 3 out of the 10 were Serens (Munsia, Diamante, and Narsrim). Diamante was not inducted into after Hajamin was gone, but because he was very close to being so, Aesyra went ahead and did it.

Does 3/10 or 30% equal a majority to you?

Sounds like Rockholm is as much a free village for Serenwilde and Southgard as much a free village for Celest in that situation as Ankrag would be for Magnagora by the way you just layed that out. And again, its not because of how anything its coded - its because of what the players choose to do.

People can complain to the Divine as much as they want, but its the people themselves who choose how these things play out.

My god, wtf do I have to do to get people to read?

I swear to god that I have posted at least 17 times in this thread that the context of the conversation was Dairuchi rebelling with Angkrag, thus creating an imbalanced "paired" village scenario that isn't present with the rest of them.

I never once complained that Magnagora gets Angkrag. The complaint every time has been that Angkrag shouldn't rebel with Dairuchi.

I was replying to Shorlen. You simply ninjaed me. Take a chill pill and realize the universe doesn't revolve around you.

My argument is that if Angkrag wasn't so easy for Magnagora to take and so unwanted by everyone else, then Rockholm and Southgard wouldn't be 'free' villages either in the described situation. It seems, to me, on the surface, that the given scenerio creates very little conflict, and that makes me sad.

Ummm, that hasn't been true for quite a while now....

Assuming your assumption is correct, that everyone has a fair chance of Ankgrad

Ankgrad excludes:
- Serenwilde (effectively completely)
- Celest (effectively completely)
- Owner of Rockholm/Southgard (only makes it slightly more difficult, I think)

Rockholm excludes:
- Owner of Ankgrad (completely)

Southgard excludes:
- Owner of Ankgrad (completely)

So Ankgrad is really open to only Magnagora and Glomdoring (forgetting their difficulties for a moment), while Rockholm and Southgard are open to any of the four organizations.

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If we consider the alternate suggestion, that Ankgrad is far, far more likely to remain in Magnagora's hands, then what is the situation?

Rockholm excludes:
- Owner of Ankgrad (Magnagora, completely)

Southgard excludes:
- Owner of Ankgrad (Magnagora, completely)

But its still an equal three-way battle between the remaining orgs, just as it would be if anyone else owned Ankgrad. So there's no possible bias of Rockholm/Southgard to anyone.

This is not true of Ankgrad.

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I won't descend to insulting as you have done, Sidra, but I do think that is fairly clear.

Its not an insult to say that you're purposefuly being dense on the issue.

Ankrag is an equal battle between Magnagora and Glomdoring - actually, I take that back, Glomdoring has an advantage over Magnagora in Ankrag. Geomancers cannot influence in Ankrag, while anyone in Glomdoring could acquire a Crow cloak if the commune was organized.

So, if we're assuming a situation where the forces are equal. 5 from each guild, lets say, Glomdoring has the definite advantage.

Now, lets look at your example of what happens if Magnagora keeps Ankrag.

Rockholm excludes Magnagora and Glomdoring.
- Magnagora because they hold Ankrag
- Glomdoring because Serenwilde and Celest will team them.

Southgard excludes Magnagora and Glomdoring.
- Magnagora because they hold Ankrag
- Glomdoring because Serenwilde and Celest will team them.

I think that is quite clear.

You can't say "Well, Glomdoring won't fight Magnagora for Ankrag" and then not bring into the equation the fact that Celest gives orders to not touch Serens but to kill Gloms on sight, and vice versa.

Edit: And just to add, because I feel like being snarky - Telling someone you won't stoop to their level and insult is simply a passive aggressive insult in itself.

:rofl:

Glomdoring has the advantage? Someone needs a reality check.

Narsrim, drop your ego at the door. Notice I said "if the commune was organized".

If they were organized, the hardcoded mechanics give them the advantage.

You're right, someone does need a reality check, but its not me. You're a detriment to the game as a whole with the way you lord yourself over Celest and keep them from ever becoming self-reliant. At least Glomdoring has begun to step out of Magnagora's shadow, and at least Magnagora is willing to let them. You're too eager to have your ego stroked to ever let Celest do what they choose if its not what you approve of.

Glomdoring dosnt believe the taint exists now, Im unsure about how ankrag views the taint it seems to me glomdoring has as much interest in ankrag as they do any other villiage.

But technically and mathmatically Sidra is correct about glomdoring having the potential advantage over infulencing undead, we can effectivly for a power cost equipt all our members with crow cloaks so they can infulence, magnagora can potentialy only have necromancers infulence undead so that counts out geos and hunters.

Excuse me? Your continual inability to factor general feasibility into an argument is astounding. You seem deluded in the idea that if something is mechanically possible then it is a god sent advantage. However, you cannot seem to grasp or even consider other facets that factor into the influencing process - which is sad.

By your rationale, Glomdoring (if organized) should be pounding away at Angkrag. Well my dear, why hasn't Glomdoring done so? If Glomdoring is so stepping out of Magnagora's shadow, why is there absolutely no effort to go after Angkrag?

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Likewise, you have no idea about Celest. While it would suit my fancy if I did reign over it, I don't. In fact, they recently went so far as to create a new law to enemy any person who releases the Gorgogs (which is primarily me).

You endless banter about Narsrim hovering over Celest as some sort of political dictator is amusing, but sadly bullshit much as your comments about Hajamin's Order being primary Serens (when in fact while he was around, only 2/10 were and after he was gone 3/10). It would be amazing and worthwhile if in the future, you could perhaps talk to some Celestians. I think you will find that conversation with other people instead of investigation into your arse to see what you dig pull out will lead to more accurate and substantial opinions.

I really hope Catarin or Shamarah reads this thread. We can all share a laugh at how misguided some people are about Narsrim and his impact in Celest.



This is on the assumption that Glomdoring has an infinite power source to generate crow cloaks, which it does not - far from it.

If you take this further and say that these cloaks could be stored in a shop, then you also have to factor in how they can be distributed at any given point to the general populace, but also stop say someone from buying them all out. This also would likely lead to the cloaks leaking out into other hands, which Xenthos expressed is something he's against.

Once the cloaks are out then there is another matter of recollecting and storing them, etc.

In sum, the overall feasibilty of managing a constant supply of cloaks to people who need them and burning the power to continually make them isn't very practical versus a huge group of people who can innately influence dead.

And as we know, even if Geomancers can't influence undead, they can debate and provide secondary support.

This isn't a matter of "everyone" being able to influence undead from a given organization. It is a matter of "enough" them being able to influence while the rest can provide secondary support to help brace the village for a given organization.

You accuse everyone else of not reading, but you seem to fail again and again - I said starting to step out of Magnagora's shadow. I don't know why they aren't going after it, but if we're talking about that idea, then clearly Southgard and Rockholm are free villages for Serenwilde and Celest, because they're just going to team up to kill Gloms.

Next, my current character, Sidra, is a Celestian. I've witnessed what happens when the leadership isn't around and the entire city is cowed by you. I've witnessed a young Aquamancer asking on CT because Munsia told her she was her superior during the influencing of Dairuchi, and when the rest of the people told her not to listen, Munsia started going rabid. I witnessed as Munsia was enemied to the Celestines and you screamed to high heaven that if she wasn't unenemied to the guild, you would cease helping the city all together. And I saw her get instantly unenemied.

And, I don't care about the numbers of members of order members. We're talking about names. You, Munsia, and Diamante was aligned enough that he counts too. Compared to Aseyra and Ekard on the Celestian side that really stood out. Yes, I'd call that a majority.

Don't tell me I don't know what's going on - I do.

And, as for that law, you should already be enemied. You've already got the tag-line, so they can't ever prove you do it again, as i'm sure you've got spores waiting for the instant you hand over the final piece, so that by the time anyone can look, you're back in Serenwilde. You're the primary opener, so you should suffer the consequences for your actions that everyone knows is going to continue, and that everyone knows you're never going to be called on.

Has Glomdoring ever held Southgard? Yes, it has! Thus, your argument that it is a "free" village for Serenwilde and Celest is incorrect. Has anyone else ever held Angkrag? No! Thank you.

==============================================

As for Celest, I've been enemied to Celest in the past - twice actually; however, I think it is worth noting that on a general basis, I've done a great deal for Celest, primarily slaying Demon Lords. I've put over 8,000p in the Pool of Stars as a result so yes, I do command some respect.

Likewise, there were times when Celest has zero chance to thwart Magnagora raiding Celestia (no amount of standing on their own would have mattered) so I stepped up (sometimes I was even forced) to help spare some grief. For this, I do receive a rather warm welcome. However, I still have -zero- political input. I can't change laws. I can't make laws. I can't enemy people.. I can't have Richter's manse disconnected.

Furthermore, it is worth noting that the a recent surge in Celest are pro-Serens, which is not my doing. Malicia, Triden, Mitch, Letho, Yukari, Yuniko, Athalas, etc. are all former Serens who are all very close to me and Serenwilde to some degree.

Celest has always had the power to step out from Serenwilde; however, times have proven that the two of us seem to do better as a whole when we assume a neutral/pro-friendly stance.

As for the Veradins: Aesyra, Shamarah, Ekard, Kelly, Elaria, Maelon (when he was around), etc. were all prominent Celestians. In fact, at one point every Celestian in the Order (backing up, we remembers that's 7 people) were ALL in leadership position in Celest.

Finally regarding the gorgogs, you will note that Celest helped me release them the first time that I killed Gorgulu 3 times in a row because it kept Magnagora from spiking and as a result lead to the falling of the Necromentate.

And yes, I'm still going to unofficially open the gorgogs because my agenda (which someone people question) has always been to harm Magnagora. I don't defend Celest or Celestia for the hell of it. It feeds my agenda, and in turn, it does help them too. However, it is far from charity.

Celest could enemy me at any time. I accept this. However, the people there also recognize that I do provide support for the city and as such, I do get away with more than most... but that is certainly the extent of any influence I have.

First: Let me point out something. The owner of Ankgrad might not be able to win either of the other mines. That does not mean they cannot still join the conflict. So your exclusion of Glomdoring based on being 'teamed' is in error. If Serenwilde/Celest decide to help each other, it is likely Magnagora will help Glomdoring - a classic 2v2 battle.

Second, you're completely ignoring the obvious difference.

Any one of the four organizations can fight for Rockholm.

Any one of the four organizations can fight for Southgard.

Ankgrad will always fall to either Magnagora or Glomdoring. Given Glomdoring's previous history, and current political reality, I do not expect that they will choose to directly confront Magnagora in the near future, in a violent-only village.


Now, I don't really understand how crow cloaks work. Perhaps a Glomdoring player can explain. But from what I gather, it is 10 power and can be fashioned an unlimited number of times? While Serenwilde might have role and practical hurdles in obtaining and using crow cloaks, I suspect these either do not exist or are insignificant for Magnagoran citizens. So Geomancers -could- influence, provided Magnagora was as organized and prepared as Glomdoring must be. Although I haven't been able to enter for a while, I also suspect that the Ankgrad mines are all tainted underground. Can anyone confirm?

I do not think Glomdoring has any advantage at all. I am assuming that it is as equally possible for Glomdoring to remove a Necromancer's ability to influence undead as it is possible for Magnagora to remove crow cloaks.


Finally, it is insulting to say that another is making use of deceit and sophistry in order to obfuscate a 'logical' discussion. If you believe I am stupid, then you are entitled to display your vast ego in proclaiming as much, but do not presume intent. I have tried to explain my statements using what I believe are reasonable justifications, rather that "you're just dumb!".

Believe me, the forums have seen more than their share of this sort of 'debating'.

So, they set up a law, you admit you're going to break it and get away with it, and yet you bitch and moan in other threads about no one being willing to get better?

You're a complete and utter hypocrit. You expect everyone else to suffer consequences except for you. In my opinion, the damage you've done to people, both in the game and over the forums makes you far worse than even an infamous oldie such as Valek.

You do nothing but damage. Sure, you've added to Celests power, but in retalionation for your Demon Lord kills, how many times have the Supernals been brought down? Don't build yourself up, Narsrim. You and your crew do more damage than you're willing to admit, and you're going to continue to do it until people start telling you what they think of you. Your own commune doesn't even like you - its just easier to say "yes" and be protected than deal with your hissy fits.

Grow up, Narsrim. You're just a bully who gets off on hurting people. You've got nothing to be proud of.

Sidra honey, this is OOC. Of course, I wouldn't say that IC. Let's try and keep up next time.

As for killing Demon Lords, if you want to blame anyone well... Aesyra helped me kill most of them and she was a Celestine at the time :confused:

I think it is worth noting that Magnagora would do that Magnagora does because Magnagora can. Furthermore, FYI: I don't care if Supernals die. I'm not a Celestine. I don't pretend to care. I just try and thwart Magnagora to the best I can. I'm sorry if you were confused. It would be helpful if you asked next time instead of assuming.

You will also note, I've already accepted the consequences if they so blow in my direction. I'm not blind to them. I realize I could be punished for them just as other people may have been "punished" as a result of them.

It isn't my decision to make so I really don't see why it is my "fault."

Huh? I think you are misunderstanding what Sidra said. Nowhere did she say you were gloating OOC over your OOC actions, just gloating OOC over your character's IC actions. Which, well, you are.