Well, I think of it like this. Some people enjoy researching and writing. For those people, there are the optional essays. Or there are those who don't like doing either. Personally, I don't mind, but I don't want to be required to write. As long as a player can do a little bit of digging to learn about what ever topic and can carry on a conversation or answer a few questions about it, we should be fine.

As for 'paragraph' vs 'essay', I prefer to just say "write in your journal about such and such" or just "write about whatever", then the person could write as little or as much as they like as long as they prove they have a decent understanding on the topic.

Wow, this turned into a big debate.

I agree with Narsrim. It's not an essay really, and it's really not that different from having someone just explain it to you in words. Most essays I've written/read are about the length of one of these posts, and require minimal writing. We're not demanding thesis papers. Most of the time the requirement may be something like, spar two people and write a short paragraph about what you learned, or simply "what is the taint". I'm sorry, that's neither ridiculous to ask for or really demanding of someone.

Of course the paragraphs/essays/3 sentances/mindless ramblings are optional. But thats because gaining rank is optional. I hate hate hate hate writing in game, but I support them in requirements, because if you can't be bothered to spend 10-15 minutes writing something (thats all it takes, usually), why do you deserve a higher rank?

I'm not a big fan of writing essays either, but I do them and I don't see a problem with being required to do them. You want something mindless go play WoW. OMG they're making me put thought into my character!

And that means what? One of the single most intelligent, learned and wisest people I know is completely illiterate and can't write an essay for his life. Just because you join a "scholarly" guild doesn't mean you have to be OOCLY conventionally scholarly.

1st question: If a member decided just not to worry about rank or position and not do the essays at all are they punished?

It makes a difference. There's a whole set of tasks in the Ur'Guard that's doable and a major way of gaining rank, but it's all optional: If someone decided to stay at rank 1 for years no one will say anything bad to them. After novicehood, though, there's a task that involves basic venom knowledge that IS required. It's a 'lax' requirement, since there's no formal punishment, but that's going to change in time. Even if you don't care a whit about fighting, you MUST pass the thing sometime.


Now, to play devil's advocate:

Joining a guild in this game is a requirement, in all truth. WHICH guild you want to join, though, isn't. Given that, it really is in the right of the guild leaders to put whatever requirements they want, since the guildmember can always switch guilds/organizations if they don't approve.

I say this because the conversation switched from "What Magnagora can do to grow" into "What this Magnagoran guild SHOULD do."

Yes, setting a requirement many people don't like may make the guild unpopular. However, so long as the guild understands that, then they are allowed to do it.

Let's say a guild is saying "If you can't write a paragraph at our wishes then we don't want you"*. With that, you only have three options:

1. Accept it and do the task.

2. Go with the flow, become well ranked, and work to change it.

3. Don't accept it, declare the guild as a lost cause and find another.

Simply telling people "You shouldn't do that" is BLAH.


Given that, I will switch sides again:

Guys, ok, you want an essay done..darn well require it. Now, I must ask YOU:

1. How many novices run through your guild in a given year?

2. Of them, how many stay?

3. How many people are actually doing the essays in a given year and advancing through the ranks?

4. Lastly.. do you have more Rank 1s and novices than higher members?


Pull up those answers and look at them. If you're happy with the result then fine. If you find you want more people then that then you'll need to change. That's the bottom line.

edit: *= As I read it, it sounds like the writing task is NOT a requirement to stay in the guild, only to grow in it. Given that, they AREN'T saying they don't want you.. they are just saying "they don't want you to lead". BIG difference. In the Ur'Guard, if you can't be bothered to come when called by a superior I would NOT want you leading others.

Its not a requirement for Geomancers novices to write an essay. Its a requirement if you want to pass GR1 from what I gathered in this thread. Where's the problem? This isn't Achaea, you're right. No one can stop you from getting your guild skills if you don't write the essay. But if you want to rise in the guild and have a say, then yes, I think it is fully acceptable to have to write a paragraph.

If you can't write a paragraph, you clearly aren't going to be willing to put the the sort of thought into anything I would want deciding an election or anything else of importance.

There are no guilds that force a novice to write essays, so this whole argument is moot. Requiring it for advancement in a guild is completely different - the only thing that you are restricted from is the news, voting, and a title of your choosing. All of those things are privledges, not rights. If they were rights, you could title yourself and you would have access to voting and the news at GR1.

I really don't see an issue.

I honestly don't see an issue either. I wrote the three 'essays', (paragraphs) required for Tzara's particular path in fifteen minutes. I wrote them all in advance, so I'd have them ready for when I took the tests. Granted, Tzara isn't on the more scholarly path, and while I am not an exceptional writer, I am used to writing overlong, windy things... so I -may- be a special case, but still. If you don't want to write the 'essays', join the combat path and feel free to sit at GR1 or whatever. If you can't be buggered with 'essays', you likely really don't want to be burdened with the stuff even Undersecretaries, let alone full-fledged Secretaries have to do in the Geomancers guild, (edited to add:) which is just about all I can see guild rank being used for. Advancement within the guild. Barring the amusing little quirks like the super-secret GTS, and log-reading, neither of which I'd have trouble living without.

Still, the options of having a interview instead, or perhaps giving a speech sound like lovely options, but in my experience, that would require far more setup, time, and writing than a little paragraph ever would.

In my opinion, anyone should be able to spout a bit of BS about their guild. I'm sure you could even get Murphy to rant about how the Ur'Guard rock and everyone else should get the beaten out of them. I really think the problem is the word 'essay' itself, which people misunderstand as meaning 'five paragraph expository writing which conforms to the college standard and will be graded on spelling, grammar, content, and metaphor."

Umm, no. Nearly all Lusternian guilds are asking for a paragraph. Just something small, doesn't even have to be good writing, just something to show what you're thinking about.

:shrug:

Yes. Unfortunately, the issue has become confused. As you stated, Sidra, the Geomancers do not have any compulsory essays except to rise from GR1. As has already been stated, there are no penalties for those who do not do so, but they -are- given occasional encouragement.

Asarnil, you're being semantically sloppy. I don't have a subscription to the OED from this location, so I'll just settle for www.dictionary.com

<5 minutes later>

Ew. There's a good reason why I prefer to use a decent dictionary not a glorified search engine and advert platform. Expect me to edit this post tomorrow as and when I have access to something more substantial.



The word scholar is etymologically derived from the Latin schola (school). It means proper academic work. There's one or two men I drink with at my local pub (when I'm at home) who rather resemble the person from your quotation, Asarnil. They're farmers actually, and from long and relatively hard lives, they've built up an astounding collection of life-experience. Every now and again one of them will drop an off-hand comment that staggers me by the quality of its perception. Both the men I'm referring to haven't opened a book in their lives and are essentially illiterate. What does that mean? They're wise certainly.. they're intelligent perhaps.. they are learned in their fields (pun intended)... but scholarly? No. To be a scholar does not mean to have built up a reserve of life experience.. it means (to use a fairly crude definition) to have studied in books.

Keep in mind too that Lusternia has a book system. That pretty much encourages people to write.

Maybe Magnagora is in a bit of a slump because a few players seem to have gone inactive. Kahazul, aka Guido Flagg seems to have disappeared. Azrion was kinda the king of the Library until he seemed to go woefully inactive (and later Aiakon kicked him out). Mell is playing an alt.

Then again, I tend to notice when some players go gone...I'm guessing Gregori quit, I've not seen Ashteru around either, Marina left (but I'm hoping she became Ephermeral), and I've not seen Qaletaqa either.

If I ever purchase an aethership ship I'm naming it the Qaletaqa Azrion Marina.

Weren't just me. Takes more than one vote to kick out a CR6... and he did screw us about a bit.

Blah, Ur'Guard asks for nothing involving a writing, and I see no reason to ever add it. As I see it, only the guild administrator has to be eliquent. The GM and Secretaries need to be able to make a paragraph that's readable.

Undersecretaries, meanwhile, need to be able to put two words together legibly. Everyone else can be illiterate book burners for all that matters.

We don't write letters to people, we kill them.


I love my character

I totally agree, look at Murphy IC, he writes poorly, speaks poorly too (nice RP addition to my apathy about types or speeling mistakes) Murphy would fit into one of those 'paper is only good for wiping up blood' catrgoies.

Make a note I lumped the Champion along with the rest.

Oh, Envoy is placed besided GA.

Back to the original topic...

As I have mentioned to someone else, one way to provoke some participation from the lower ranking citizens would be to regularly notify the city if something like closing the rift needs to be done, and by that, I mean telling it over CT, not over some clan or other . Heck, even I do not always know when Ladantine needs to be raised, so I guess the Serfs must have even less of a clue. I know when I was just a nameless Trooper, I never had any idea as for what was going on. It is only when Daevos once asked me if I wanted to join a Celestia raid that I started knowing what was happening.

I have to agree with the comments by Veonira. Especially on the note of enthusiasm of administering to a leadership position. You need to have zeal and a focus. I believe my short time as GA spurred quite a few people into staying and taking up where I left off. Such as Yurika, Brenon, and Simimi. <3

I can now see that regardless of if what I did failed or not it succeeded in inspiring more people to pick up what I left them with.

The key point in this is to do something and whatever effort you put in you will see results. Maybe not the next day but within your lifetime, yes. The more novices you remember and acknowledge as people in your world the more success you will have in inspiring them to remain with your organization.

People want to be remembered and valued regardless of their caste or current ranking within organizational hierarchy. Even if they are a serf they should be happy in that station and have the freedom to improve without total overbearance.

*tear*
*standing ovation Qaletaqa*
love-mimi

That is the key to a strong Magnagora, I think. We don't need to REALY soften our image. A Serf can still be treated like..well.. a serf. What needs to be stressed is that the Elite is NOT the 'Good Old Boy' mentality, and that we would LOVE to have you join into the fray in some form. That, along with more ackoledgement of successful effort will make for some powerful forces.

I would think that Magnagora's Rp is well suited to face this sort of disaster (the original point of this thread, not this blah I don't like essays crap). Magnagora is the engine of change; people recognize that theres a problem, and that they must adapt to fix it. If it were up to me (which it is not, in any way shape or form) I would make the only truely permeant facet of Magnagora's RP the fact that nothing is permenant. The city can mutate and grow into anything, to sustain itself and further its goals.

Celest would seem to have a much bigger problem with this, because (correct me if I'm wrong) are so set in tradition, being the antithesis of Magnagora.

As for the essays...
o Its not your guild.
o You don't HAVE to do essays.
o Ranks shouldn't be free.

Now stop complaining about them.