Just to throw an idea into this round, I'm not necessarily saying it's good neither am I convinced it will work but...

I hear people saying that Magnagora will eventually need to incorporate a more friendly atmosphere so as to become attractive to players. Well, does it really? I mean, if I am looking for a friendly or good atmosphere (as a newbie who doesn't know much about Lusternia), I'd obviously either go to the "good" city Celest or the "good" forest Serenwilde. Not the "evil" Magnagora or Glomdoring.

If we need a better atmosphere, I think we'd need one for characters that really fit to Magnagora, rather than turning more and more into just another Default Organisation Offering Enjoyable Pasttimes with red "evil" paint and gruesome skills, like many of the more populated MUDs seem to house. Magnagora shouldn't be filled with those cliche villains of the "wicked and devious on the outside but soft and snuggly on the inside" stereotype, should it? Magnagora is about domination, power, and the conviction that everyone else should submit to you, or else. Of course that has to be balanced somehow so players of other orgs can still do their thing, and newbies have room to breathe and do newbish mistakes. And of course that will likely not be very attractive to a fair share to the random newbies who just moved over from Achaea or some MMOC like WoW, but in turn I think it'd be very attractive for those people who're looking for the, pardon, "real thing".

As I said, this in a more concise version is what just came into my mind when reading through the thread, I'm not necessarily convinced it really has to be that way. Opinions?

As a new player in any MUD, I -always- go to the Evil side first. I relish feeling scared and being insulted and occasionally, randomly slain. I confess that I don't really buy the "we must be nice for people to join us" argument.. it certainly wouldn't work for me.

See? That's what I was talking about. I do have a strong feeling that maybe trying to attract many newbies isn't the best choice after all, but rather it is important to attract the RIGHT newbies, and make sure they can get easily and properly immersed.

Just as a disclaimer... I know people who're talking about having to become more friendly aren't trying to suggest Magnagora should build its own garden so they can hand out garlands to the tourists, either.

I just hate that stereotypical evillness that some people adopt. "Love is weakness. Compassion is weakness blah blah blah. I am a being completely full of hate blah blah... It is possible to be dark and have feelings and not turn into the cliche being of complete evil. Many "evil" deeds are done for love. Depending on how you define it love.. can actually be describe as the root of evil if you think of it in a way.

Well there are no evil or organisations in lusternia to be honest. Thats what I kind of like about it more realistic kinda.

I think we can probably say that the Soulless are evil.

But aside from that, no - you're right.

Nah.

They're just misunderstood.

It's more or less all about perspective. They were at most tainted not by choice so thats all they know how to live with, I guess.

Hello mr nitpicker!

hush you you know what I mean.

EDIT: ya thats kind of what I mean archer, its all perspective people could call celest evil because they were the first to let the taint out or you could could call them good for trying to get rid of it, could call magnagora evil for still using the taint or you could call them smart for using what is now a pretty nature resource. Im sure you could pin evil and good on any organisation if you tried hard enough and they could do the same to you, its not just clear cut like Oh shallam is good and mhaldor is evil full stop.

Agreed. I originally chose Magnagora because I wantd to play a character in a fascist like state. I wouldn't have been there if it adopted a "friendly" policy.

That would be Celest and possibly Glomdoring if you chose to understand it that route...

Magnagora however is very clear in the "I gain pleasure from torturing people" perspective. (i.e. nifilhema)

The Love / compassion = weakness line.. is a sort of Mhaldorian Achaean one.

The beauty of Magnagora and the Demon Lords is that it simply isn't as cut and dry as that. The 5 Demon Lords are all different, and all have different attributes. Some might agree with the love/compassion = evil, some might not regard it as terribly relevant. Then you have the Geomancers.. who in the main aren't terribly bothered by the Demon Lords.. preferring to ignore the cerebral side of the taint and darkness, in favour of a simple appreciation of the Taint in Earth.. and a desire to propogate it - both because it will increase their power, and in some cases, because they genuinely believe that it would be better for the Basin. Aiakon follows up this line, and indeed he has grown so tired of the way that the 'untainted' simply refuses to share his point of view that he has begun to despise them for their voluntary inferiority.

Then you have the Magnagoran Gods, both of whom are untainted. Raezon pursues knowledge with the true desire of a committed scholar, but without any concern for ethics. He sees the Soulless and the Taint as study that will yield great knowledge, and he sees most Magnagorans as ethically minded as he is... So he lives in Magnagora. Lord Fain seems even less interested in the Taint. All he wants is absolute power.. and he regards Magnagora as the one city in the basin most likely to give it to him.. (power that is).

In short.. Magnagora is a mix of different, usually unscrupulous beliefs.. all of which more or less live in harmony.

I think it's a classic in all games. People like to go with the goodie blue or green city, with the most atractive races. They feel better playing an archetypical paladin saving the day than the evil barbarian.

Magnagora and Glomdoring won't never be so popular as Celest or Serenwilde, unless they stop being "evil" because their role is more difficult to keep, and if they go softer people is going to leave. Is that bad for them? no, I think once people have been through the difficulties of being considered evil, hunted, attacked, and living in a militaristic city, they are there to stand. Much less people leave magnagora publically (people who matters, who make noise when they leave, not a random novice with novice doubts about where to play) than Celest, so I guess things even out in the end.

Aiakon,

You will note Fain also tried to ally with the Soulless too. He isn't so simple Fain actually has a very rich, convoluted (as he likes it) history.

Yeah.. I just wish I could read it. I want the next Elder Gods instalment released...

You could always talk to him. When I was in fain's order, we always used to chit chat about his history because I was curious. I found him incredibly fascinating.

I dont personally see much wrong with Magnagora, the only determent from joining may infact be the evil militeristic style thats sometimes present. Theyre all really good people, I get laughs from Yrael and what happened earlier. Veonira threatening to smack everyone, just some of the silly comments you hear as well as some of the really well thought out responses as well as the amazing surrounding feeling of being a citizen. In Serenwilde I felt secluded and in Celest I feel somewhat isolated as Diamondais, but as Nuria I feel as if I have a chance and can live up to their expectations which really helps. Not to mention they have parts purely devoted to helping you out when you desperately need it.

I actually think that we've been doing a lot better lately

I've just started playing and gravitated to Mangora at the beginning. I like the idea about an evil empire. The problem is is that most people don't. Also (and if i'm wrong please correct me) but the idea of Mangora is supposed to be about there being knowledge and power outside of the normal or good way. That there's more then one way of life. I think that Mangora needs to stop being described as a "evil empire" and be described as what it really is.

Except that it "really is" an evil empire, regardless of what the idea is supposed to be.