Amulet went for about 2k, you are thinking of the pet which went for just over 3k.

ok so roughly 2000cr... now we must wonder, has the city ever given credits to Daevos or another offical because they are a city official. A salary if you willl?

it's no secret the ur'guard is one of the only remaining guilds that pay it's leaders a small salary. A fine ongoing tradition if you ask me, i believe people who put in the effort deserve to get rewarded, but i'm an old school achaean where the leader of the city got heaps and heaps of credits for holding the job...till it changed.

I still believe in salaries

That's fine Murphy. I honestly don't mind at all.. and in fact in Aetolia while I was a GM, I got credits for it too.

The only reason I'm bringing it up is Athana asked what some of the issues were surrounding Magnagora's decline in population. I've talked to several people who joined Serenwilde from Magnagora, and it seemed to be something that annoyed most of them. It certainly isn't likely to be a major reason or anything, but a reason none the less.

I'm not bad mouthing the practice. I'm just saying that it isn't something that attracts new players or encourages people to stay because there can only be so many "chief" as Ixion put it.

Narsrim, in so far as your assessments are valid, and they have their share of validity though I don't agree with them, I don't think that they lie at the route of the problem.. nor do I even think they are indicative of it. Point 1 is not something that new characters are going to know about... Point 2 no longer applies... and Point 3.. I don't think it applies either. Certainly, I've never felt undermined.. Though obviously I can't speak for others.

Magnagora treads a difficult line.. you can see that from the range of opinions on this forum. On the one hand you have Stangmar saying:



and on the other, I hear daily complaints that Magnagora's slightly uncompromising manners are scaring novices off. Stangmar has a point that I absolutely sympathise with... but I didn't kick out Niyu, Finn -really- had to upset a lot of people before he was finally booted.. (Liconius I don't know and I won't comment on). The thing is, we do try. In an ideal world, Lusternia would have more players coming in, and we could pick and choose a little more.. as it is, we often have to bend over backwards to accomodate awkward players who won't accept the prevailing Roleplay. Every now and again there are irreconcilable issues like the one Aiakon had with Shakaya, where I -had- to kick her out to keep my character consistent.. and we can't really avoid those. In an ideal world, I'd say: Magnagora is Tainted, it's hard-nosed, and it's authoritarian: if you don't like it, go elsewhere. Unfortunately, we can't... and that's one of the roots of our problems.



I don't much like the corporation idea much.. but much of what you say is already in practice. Aiakon believes his goals are pure (essentially the tainting of the entire basin), and he is prepared to do anything, ethically good or evil, to bring them about. I'm trying to encourage that sort of fundamentalism in the Geomancers.. and I'm working on it. My goals aren't necessarily compatible with those of the rest of the city.. but they do suit the Geomancers quite well, I think.

You point about being a corporation = treating your own citymates and guildmates nicely... doesn't really hold water for me. It might if I was Japanese, where they seem to be a little more civilised about such things, but as far as I'm concerned, if I was the director of a corporation I'd be regarding the serfs as expendable labour even more than I do already.

With regards the governance of Magnagora... look at the three Guild Heads. Myself, Nokraenom, Navaryn... none of us are fighters really.. we fight because we have to, but it's not our be all and end all. Daevos may be a fighter, but he's -also- a fine politician. I think you're doing us a slight injustice with your analysis.. we're not quite as crude and rough as we may seem.



Dunno really. I rarely see a situation in which a Geomancer novice joins, decides they don't like it, and leaves. We have a lot that go inactive.. but don't all guilds? In the main, the ones that leave the city to quit are usually the players of a certain type - those that play as a group of school friends, and for whom OOC interaction essentially decides the fate of their characters. Having said that, we lost a novice recently.. who read a Post I made on the Guild Clan board and took exception to it. Given that I had never heard nor seen of this novice before.. and his moderately offensive msg demonstrated a thorough ignorance of the appropriate.. I hardly think he was a major loss.



I have absolutely no idea to whom you refer, Joli... but yes, I do nag you about the essays. Why? Because they are -absurdly- easy, and it's ridiculous that you languish with the title Apprentice when you used to be a Guild GA. I juggle my final year of University, doing a seriously labour intensive degree, with playing Lusty.. and I actually find writing imaginative, fictional essays rather relaxing. Each to their own I suppose. The fact is, it's a game. People want to improve their characters in the game.. they want their characters to gain level and to gain rank.. most people who play the Game WANT to do the guild reqs, and that's absolutely as it should be. I worry that those who complete our requirements with negligent ease are going to wonder why they bothered... Veonira basically answered your points, and I thoroughly agree with her.]

Anyway. Enough of this. I'm going to have some lunch.

Just as a note, some of the points I made were also concerning not new players, but either people who have left or are going to leave or just went inactive.

The thing to realise is that cities have a self-sustaining point. There's a point you reach enough people to do what needs to be done: defending, raiding, helping novices, talking to people, contributing to the environment. This point seems to have been missed in all the bickering: the thing that keeps the average person around is what other people bring to the game.

As people have said in the past: Whats causing people to leave? People will always come in .. the question isn't why the new people leave, its why the old people leave.

First note, Im stealing your thing with the === signs narsrim its a good idea .

A happy worker is a good worker corporation style? You've never had a overly nice boss who you know just hates your guts in private?

But as geb said somewhere else you can only teach the people who want you to teach them, if they are willing to sit at gr1 and be an apprentice even after you've offered helpful pushes theres not much you can do and your only going to cause yourself grief trying to pressure them into doing anything, as you said its a game, relax and let them work away as long as they dont do anything to silly its all good.

I believe the key thing is that Narsrim might be less talking about what REALLY happens in Magnagora and is, instead, speaking about what many people SEE in the city. Remember, it's what they SEE that determines whether they stay or go and not the truth of the matter.

For example, if you present all the inner details and figures about the artifact issue, it'll probably show that it was a fair and good idea for Magnagora to do that.

HOWEVER, to the casual viewer, or that person working their way up from Serfhood, what they'll SEE is Narsrim's perception, get frustrated and go.

It's something to think about.


Also, to bring up the "apathetic citizen" issue again. I think you can group ALOT of the city up in three groups. Of the first two groups we have:

The 'elite' crew, like Daevos, Ixion, and Murphy, who were and are the movers and shakers in the city.

The 'mulling sheep' who basicly just sit there and...well, honestly I still don't know what they do, but it's nothing benifitical for the city.


I'm thinking Magnagora has been relying on it's strong elite for some time while the larger 'sheep' gathered. How the sheep were formed I don't know, but it sounds like it's linked to what Nars and others are saying: A mix of "I'm not important here" and favoritism. Magnagora's elite has been able to wreck havok for some time though so everything seemed alright.

Now, however, the elite is fading away, as gaming generations naturally do. The problem, though, is that everyone else has become a sheep. The only reason the city holds the way it does is because some people (hi Daevos!) are stubborn enough to stay on using sheer aura to bring victories. Take them away and..well.. blah.

The third group? The people who are new but able and willing. They aren't strong enough to take over the city but they havn't been turned into sheep. Eventually, they'll be able to take up the city and keep the fight going. They just need time, though: None of you top dogs became what you are overnight after all. Time and the ability TO grow.

I don't know about the other guilds, but the Ur'Guard has been at work, with two of the three leaders of that third group (I see you lurking over there Navaryn ) and with more of that group recognized and set in place. If the Geos and Nihilists are doing the same then, in time, Magnagora will be back in the spotlight again.

But even then, it'll take time, and the transition will be very...VERY ugly.




Sidenote comment: I HATE required essays as well. I can write up a storm normally, but if you MAKE me write something I procrastinate. It's not fun.. simply put. The Ur'Guard, as such, has only two aspects that ask for writings, and that's based around the Library and is VERY voluntary. Any reports I ask from the officers doesn't even have to be in sentence format: if it's not in L33T it's good enough.

Of course that's the Ur'Guard: We're killers, not philosophers.

Well said.

*sniffle*

Don't have to be a fighter to do something beneficial for your city or commune.

Can I just say that from my experience and what I've heard from the vast majority of others, essays are a terrible guild requirement. Yay for RP and all, but it bores crap out of most people, Aikon.

Narsrim - just a point on Magnagora's "raiding". Personally I see that Serenwilde's whole thing with continually opening the Gorgog rift as a more offensive action than a couple of raids against some npcs. Every time the Gorgog rift gets opened, it means both cities have to shuffle any novices they do have well away from the Isles - and what does that leave them to do? Rat around the city or stay in villages trying to do comm quests or the like.

This is even more notable considering the fact that Gorgogs come right up into that one room of water in Magnagora. I usually start my bashing trips there, because there can be anywhere upto 7 gorgogs sitting in that one room alone, and the amount of novices that die to them is disgusting. We can't even send our younger ones to go kill spectres most of the time due to one reason or another.

The BIGGEST problem with Magnagora - there is always something that needs to be done due to the sheer amount of things that get done on a daily basis to screw around with the city.

Also even if we wanted to change our RP, we couldn't. We get forced into this role by Celest and Serenwilde. The amount of times Asarnil has been bitched at for doing something peaceful - like village quests or influencing - inside Serenwilde territory because OMG he is Magnagoran and thus tainted is getting ridiculous and is increasing steadily. I haven't participated in ANY combat action for how many months and every time I go to even train a rockeater you can expect to get flowed to or bitched at by at least 3 people (Munsia was pretty cool about me being there though which was a nice change from the rest of the commune).

Why should novices stay in a city that is constantly under barrage in the form of these disgustingly long, complicated and dangerous quests that have to be done if we don't want the city to be screwed - and when there is time to not work on them get constantly bitched at or killed just for trying to do something innocuous in another village.

I don't know where you got the impression that I don't do exactly what you're suggesting. I nag occasionally, and Aiakon posts the occasional RP 'do some work' message.. but when you get down to it.. I'm not that bothered so long as there are enough people around to help.. so that all the work doesn't fall on a few.



I think you've more or less hit the nail on the head there, Morik... though I take Jacquin's point about generations of gamers.. It's something we need to think about. The thing is, I don't see old players leaving Magnagora for pastures new... I see old players getting a bit inactive. And that's slightly out of our control.



I take the point, but I don't think that the average 'person working their way up from Serfhood' will see 'Narsrim's perception'.. Narsrim's comments are perceptive, but they're the sort of observations that a committed and long-term player makes.. the sort with plenty of OOC contacts around the different organisations. I honestly don't think that your average newbie sees it like he does. Your average middlebie may start to... but to nothing like the same degree... those of us who've been around for a while longer may know more about his points but we understand the rationale.



If you don't want to do essays and the like, you can join an unreconstructed warrior guild. If you join a Guild which prides itself on intelligence and scholarship, it's part of the course. This is not something I'm prepared to compromise on.

Or you can just learn the guild skills, pass novicehood and quit the Geomancers. Even if Aiakon tried to stamp down on teaching non-guild Geomancers I am sure you will find a number of people who wouldn't care about the restriction.

Sorry sweety never ment to cause any offense, you just seemed to say you were stressed by a few people screwing around, sorry If I got the wrong end of the stick again, No offense intended sorry

no offence taken! don't worry...

Actually Aiakon - you come off RPwise at least in the Geomancers even more insane than anything else. I have seen all of your rants over the Black Soil clan and it wouldn't surprise me if it scared people away from the guild.

EDIT: Watch your language. ~Shiri~

I try. And 'rant' would be more accurate. I've only done the one. I thought it would be fun to put together a post which contained my concerns about not enough melding, with the complaints I'd heard about the rudeness of a pair of junior members of the guild, and then I threw in a bit of RP: Aiakon's massively over the top dislike of Furrikini, his loathing of laziness, and a bit of the crazed madness style which we Geomancers are supposed to be associated with.

The reactions were mixed. I was complemented by a few people on my RP.. and I was also lambasted for it. The only real consequence was the one practically inactive Pupil I mentioned above, who decided that my Furrikini comments were clearly directed solely at him, and that the only appropriate response was a slightly disconcerted rant of heroic proportions. He was sorely mistaken.. 1) I didn't know him 2) The Furrikin comments had no one in mind - Aiakon just doesn't like them (and always hasn't. I thought that just hating Merian and Elfen was a little dull.. so I added Furrikin as well).

The fact is, Aiakon's bark is inevitably greater than his bite. As far as I was concerned that post was a bit of fun, and a little bit of Aiakon-characterisation. In retrospect.. I probably overstepped the mark but.. *shrug* we live and learn... I just re-read it actually, and I found it just as entertaining as when I wrote it. With regards 'scaring people away'..? I don't think so... and I'd be sorry if that was the case.

That's fine, just be aware that it turns a lot of people away.