Laetitia

by Unknown

Back to Common Grounds.

Saran2006-02-20 02:58:58
QUOTE(Sidra @ Feb 20 2006, 12:52 PM) 260452

I'm an idiot because Dreamweavers cannot feasibly be killed in Dreamform and I think that's perfectly ok?

Not everything needs a counter. One side has certain advantages at the cost of them not being able to counter the advantages of another org, and vice versa.


No because your brining this up in what has degenerated into a city vs commune and your talking about a skill available to one guild from all four orgs tongue.gif smile.gif.

From memory (yes it is bad) almost all secondary guild skills are shared by a commune archetype and a city archetype (Dreamweaving = Mages and Druids), Of course it's not always the case (Psionics, Tarot, Runes, and Healing i think) in an odd way it might be considered a city vs commue balance with the skillsets.\\

Anyway some how i locked a dreamweaver in dreamform and he must of been weak or something as he didn't affect me afterwards (might be a misweave)

anyway offtopic.gif
Unknown2006-02-20 03:33:39
Good to see we can all have a discussion without resorting to 'omg ownage' and 'you retard' and 'stfu not everything needs a counter'.

Top work kids. In there spirit of the WoW forums, /golfclap.
Unknown2006-02-20 03:57:09
omg ownage!!!!!!!!!!111 horde sux. lol!!!!

In other news, I personally feel that Laetita provides an unfair regen that is extremely difficult for communemembers to get in the event that cities and communes are cut off from each other. Bromides (and other potions) will probably still be freely traded (although for a lot of money) due to a hard-to-detect black market. It will be practically impossible without a God looking through system logs to determine who is mailing what vials to who, who is burying a backpack full of stuff at a certain place and telling who where it is, who is selling stuff out of a shop in a different location to people they're not supposed to be selling to... Laetita, on the other hand, requires the person to be -in- the room with the person, making it easy for anyone who just walks past to see that X is providing services they aren't supposed to be providing to others.

I see two solutions:
1) Outguild lots of Celestines and Nihilists, then have them join Serenwilde and Glomdoring as standby chanters.
2) Make Laetita enchantable.
Morik2006-02-20 04:55:50
QUOTE(blastron @ Feb 20 2006, 11:57 AM) 260502

I see two solutions:
1) Outguild lots of Celestines and Nihilists, then have them join Serenwilde and Glomdoring as standby chanters.
2) Make Laetita enchantable.


Great. Whats the problem again? Oh, I know. The Forestal communes just aren't able to debate or influence at all because Magnagora/Celest wipes their tooshes with Laetitia.

Except: they don't! Wow, I can't imagine why that is. So, again, whats the problem? Seren is doing quite fine without Laetitia.
Shiri2006-02-20 05:13:40
QUOTE(morik @ Feb 20 2006, 04:55 AM) 260525

Great. Whats the problem again? Oh, I know. The Forestal communes just aren't able to debate or influence at all because Magnagora/Celest wipes their tooshes with Laetitia.

Except: they don't! Wow, I can't imagine why that is. So, again, whats the problem? Seren is doing quite fine without Laetitia.


Which is much like saying that demigods were never overpowered because Magnagora was handling Aesyra just fine.
Morik2006-02-20 06:29:26
QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 20 2006, 01:13 PM) 260528

Which is much like saying that demigods were never overpowered because Magnagora was handling Aesyra just fine.


Whee, and someone draws bad parallels too!

Here's my parallel to your parallel: thats like saying Laetitia is fine as long as noone uses it. Much like Aesyra. Then when she and Kaervas were killing guards the Admin started changing things.
Shiri2006-02-20 06:33:16
QUOTE(morik @ Feb 20 2006, 06:29 AM) 260539

Whee, and someone draws bad parallels too!

Here's my parallel to your parallel: thats like saying Laetitia is fine as long as noone uses it. Much like Aesyra. Then when she and Kaervas were killing guards the Admin started changing things.


huh.gif Except that Aesyra -was- using her Demigod powers. Quite a bit, in fact. Remember?
Unknown2006-02-20 07:06:54
QUOTE(morik @ Feb 20 2006, 04:55 AM) 260525

Great. Whats the problem again? Oh, I know. The Forestal communes just aren't able to debate or influence at all because Magnagora/Celest wipes their tooshes with Laetitia.

Except: they don't! Wow, I can't imagine why that is. So, again, whats the problem? Seren is doing quite fine without Laetitia.

I think Shiri's analogy was perfect. This just isn't a valid argument.

After all, there was nothing wrong with worldwide flow/wisp... Magnagora had no trouble staying on top, so obviously the cities weren't disadvantaged by it. Right?
Morik2006-02-20 09:26:12
QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 20 2006, 03:06 PM) 260542

I think Shiri's analogy was perfect. This just isn't a valid argument.

After all, there was nothing wrong with worldwide flow/wisp... Magnagora had no trouble staying on top, so obviously the cities weren't disadvantaged by it. Right?


No, its not a valid argument.

My comment was about debating - which all orgs participate in, against (for the most part) each other.

Shiri's comment was about a "skillset" which was nerfed because of the actions of one against one organisation.

Your comment is about a skill which was nerfed in the context of commune/commune battles (ie not flow across faethorn <-> commune territory.) It has nothing to do with the use of flow/wisp against Magnagora - except, of course, being able to flow directly into a village. I doubt that was the biggest reason for its change, but thats IMHO.



QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 20 2006, 03:06 PM) 260542

I think Shiri's analogy was perfect. This just isn't a valid argument.

After all, there was nothing wrong with worldwide flow/wisp... Magnagora had no trouble staying on top, so obviously the cities weren't disadvantaged by it. Right?


No, its not a valid argument.

My comment was about debating - which all orgs participate in, against (for the most part) each other.

Shiri's comment was about a "skillset" which was nerfed because of the actions of one against one organisation.

Your comment is about a skill which was nerfed in the context of commune/commune battles (ie not flow across faethorn <-> commune territory.) It has nothing to do with the use of flow/wisp against Magnagora - except, of course, being able to flow directly into a village. I doubt that was the biggest reason for its change, but thats IMHO.



QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 20 2006, 02:33 PM) 260541

huh.gif Except that Aesyra -was- using her Demigod powers. Quite a bit, in fact. Remember?


actually, I remember:

* aesyra made titan
* was told "Shh, don't fight"
* then, she had to get involved in village influencing cause we needed her
* then she made demigod
* was told "shh, don't be naughty"

.. time passes ...

* demigods start killing the guards of opposite orgs. I won't point fingers to say who started, but both did it.
Torak2006-02-20 10:35:12
Communes have higher base char, cities have laetitia. Before you start on 'while cities can do this this and this to get upto X charisma' communes have access to most those skills also, such as a beauty enchant and karma blessings. It is fine, I have witnessed tons of Magnagorians debated out who had chanters for them as well as Celestians. If you take a look at politics obviously this so called world shattering imbalance(which is what you are making it out to be) isn't ruining the game nor is it winning battles for either side. There is more important issues that need looked into - end of story.
Unknown2006-02-20 11:21:51
QUOTE(Torak @ Feb 20 2006, 09:35 PM) 260562

Communes have higher base char, cities have laetitia. Before you start on 'while cities can do this this and this to get upto X charisma' communes have access to most those skills also, such as a beauty enchant and karma blessings. It is fine, I have witnessed tons of Magnagorians debated out who had chanters for them as well as Celestians. If you take a look at politics obviously this so called world shattering imbalance(which is what you are making it out to be) isn't ruining the game nor is it winning battles for either side. There is more important issues that need looked into - end of story.


As was raised earlier, we had worldwide flow and we were not on top for a long time, yet calls for nerfing it were certainly loud the whole time. By your logic, it obviously wasn't a disabling factor, since Magnagora was able to stay on top anyway.

It's not that cut and dry though, there are other things to consider than just looking at POLITICS. Serenwilde being on top of the village pile does not = a balanced laetitia. There are other variables that come into it, you know that.
Unknown2006-02-20 13:08:32
QUOTE(Torak @ Feb 20 2006, 10:35 AM) 260562

Communes have higher base char, cities have laetitia. Before you start on 'while cities can do this this and this to get upto X charisma' communes have access to most those skills also, such as a beauty enchant and karma blessings. It is fine, I have witnessed tons of Magnagorians debated out who had chanters for them as well as Celestians.

Ok, I get how it seems that charisma is vastly different, but let's look at this more closely since it comes up a lot. I'm going to ignore any buffs that are available to everyone.

Celest:

- Faeling Celestine (16 base + 1 populus) 17
- Merian Celestine (15 base, + 1 populus) 16
- Elfen Celestine (15 base + 1 populus) 16
- Tae'dae Celestine (15 base + 1 populus) 16
- Furrikin Celestine (14 base + 1 populus) 15
- Merian Aquamancer (15 base) 15
- Aslaran/Trill Celestine (13 base + 1 populus) 14


Serenwilde:

- High Elfen Moondancer/Hartstone (16 base) 16
- Faeling Moondancer/Hartstone (16 base) 16
- Tae'dae Moondancer/Hartstone (15 base) 15
- Furrikin Moondancer/Hartstone (14 base) 14

Glomdoring:

- Shadowfaeling Shadowdancer (16 base + 1 (?) penumbra) 17
- Shadowfaeling Blacktalon (16 base) 16
- Tae'dae Shadowdancer (15 base + 1 (?) penumbra) 16
- Elfen Shadowdancer (15 base + 1 (?) penumbra) 16
- Furrikin Shadowdancer (14 base + 1 (?) penumbra) 15
- Aslaran/Trill Shadowdancer (13 base + 1 (?) penumbra) 14


Magnagora:

- Faeling Nihilist (16 base + 1 populus) 17 (Do not say this doesn't happen, I see Magnagoran Faelings very often while influencing).
- Tae'dae Nihilist (15 base + 1 populus) 16
- Furrikin Nihilist (14 base + 1 populus) 15
- Aslaran/Trill Nihilist (13 base + 1 populus) 14
- Viscanti Nihilist (12 base + 1 populus) 13
- Viscanti Geomancer (12 base) 12



Also, is there a Necromancy/Celestialism skill that boosts charisma? I wasn't sure so left it out.

So, the cities have potential for more possible charisma than the communes (at least Serenwilde, Glomdoring I'm not sure about), but this is usually outweighed by the fact that communes tend to have greater numbers of those charismatic races.

So while it is often true that the average commune charisma is greater than the average city charisma, both cities have higher charisma characters than are possible in the communes.

If I've forgotten any skills, please point them out.

Essentially, races are not limited to cities or communes, unlike laetitia.
Shorlen2006-02-20 13:29:34
You forgot Netzarch, and Prenumbra is +2 and level 1 ego regen
Unknown2006-02-20 13:41:07
Laetitia can be cast on anyone, many times there were alliances between Serenwilde/Celest and Glomdoring/Magnagora about taking villages, and commune members can get chanters as well in such a case.

Also, should combat and influencing be balanced separately? In combat, there's a lot of differences between skills, tactics and ways to kill. In case of influencing, it's all about Charisma and ego because it's such a simple system.
Xenthos2006-02-20 13:43:10
You also forgot the Warrior specializations, too.
Unknown2006-02-20 13:45:47
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Feb 20 2006, 01:43 PM) 260580

You also forgot the Warrior specializations, too.

I'm not sure warriors are supposed to be very good at charm and influence, all the warrior specializations include deductions of charisma.
Aiakon2006-02-20 13:46:09
QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 20 2006, 01:08 PM) 260576

Magnagora:

- Faeling Nihilist (16 base + 1 populus) 17 (Do not say this doesn't happen, I see Magnagoran Faelings very often while influencing).
Unknown2006-02-20 13:47:09
QUOTE(Kashim @ Feb 20 2006, 01:41 PM) 260578

Laetitia can be cast on anyone, many times there were alliances between Serenwilde/Celest and Glomdoring/Magnagora about taking villages, and commune members can get chanters as well in such a case.

And anyone could follow people who flow. So it really was available to everyone, and wasn't a commune advantage at all! happy.gif

QUOTE(Aiakon @ Feb 20 2006, 01:46 PM) 260584

I'm not saying anything.. but who've you got in mind, out of interest?

Anyone with a cameo is usually faeling when influencing rolls around. dry.gif

I noticed Athana in Delport.
Narsrim2006-02-20 14:26:44
QUOTE(Aiakon @ Feb 20 2006, 08:46 AM) 260584

I'm not saying anything.. but who've you got in mind, out of interest?


Bau.
Narsrim2006-02-20 15:17:31
I'm going to make my own chart, but to make it less confusing, we're going to assume max class buffs for charisma.


Druid Charisma Buffs:

NA (+0) = +0 total

===================================================

Guardian Charisma Buffs:

Populus (+1), Netzach (+1) = +2 total

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Mage Charisma Buffs:

Netzach (+1) = +1 total

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Warrior Charisma Buffs:

Rituals: Populus (+1) = +1

Highmagic: Netzach (+1) = +1 total

Lowmagic: NA (+0) = +0 total

===================================================

Wiccan Charisma Buffs:

NA (+0) = +0 total

===================================================

Exceptions:

- Assume +2 charisma for Night users from Penumbra

- Fortuna and Lion are not being evaluated in my post because they are both highly variable

===================================================

At this point, I think it is fairly clear that additional charisma buffs are in general more available to cities. Guardians pull +2, Mages and Warriors can pull +1, Wiccans and Druids pull +0. Likewise, I excluded thrones and the beauty karma blessing because they are available to everyone and as such do not factor into any imbalance. We will now examine races.


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It is my opinion that when looking at races, it is only important to look at specialist races primarily because all other races are available to all other parties and as such do not add more "weight" to one side more so than another.

+-= Celest =-+

Imperial Merians: 15 base charisma

Merian Lord: 11 base charisma

+-= Magnagora =-+

Master Viscanti: 12 base charisma

Brood Viscanti: 9 base charisma

+-= Serenwilde =-+

High Elfen: 16 base charisma

Elfen Lord: 12 base charisma

+-= Glomdoring =-+

Shadowcaster Faeling: 16 base charisma

Shadowlord Faeling: 13 base charisma

===================================================
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After looking at the numbers, Celest, Serenwilde, and Glomdoring have roughly the same amount of charisma without buffs. The only place that is significantly different would be Magnagora, which has far less than the other 3.

To Malicia: The claim than Communes have "far more" charisma is false. A High Elfen has +1 more charisma than an Imperial Merian. Likewise, an Elfen Lord has +1 more charisma than a Merian Lord. I nor do I feel most consider that "far more."

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Once we boil this down with total buffs, we end up with the following:

QUOTE
Celest:

Imperial Merian (15) + Guardian Buffs (+2) = 17 total charisma

Imperial Merian (15) + Mage Buffs (+1) = 16 total charisma

Merian Lord (11) + Highmagic Buffs (+1) + Ritual Buffs (+1) = 13 total charisma

Merian Lord (11) + Lowmagic Buffs (+0) + Ritual Buffs (+1) = 12 total charisma


QUOTE
Magnagora:

Master Viscanti (12) + Guardian Buffs (+2) = 14 total charisma

Master Viscanti (12) + Mage Buffs (+1) = 13 total charisma

Brood Viscanti (9) + Highmagic Buffs (+1) + Ritual Buffs (+1) = 11 total charisma

Brood Viscanti (9) + Lowmagic Buffs (+0) + Ritual Buffs (+1) = 10 total charisma


QUOTE
Serenwilde:

High Elfen (16) + No Buffs (+0) = 16 total charisma

Elfen Lord (12) + Highmagic Buffs (+1) = 13 total charisma

Elfen Lord (12) + Lowmagic Buffs (+0) = 12 total charisma


QUOTE
Glomdoring:

Shadowcaster Faeling (Shadowdancer) (16) + No Buffs (+0) + Night Buffs (+2) = 18 total charisma

Shadowcaster Faeling (Blacktalon) 16 + No Buffs (+0) = 16 total charisma

Shadowlord Faeling w/ Night (13) + Highmagic Buffs (+1) + Night Buffs (+2) = 16 total charisma (15 with Lowmagic)

Shadowlord Faeling w/ Crow (13) + Highmagic Buffs (+1) = 14 total charisma


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In sum if we want to be technical in terms of charisma:

GLOMDORING > CELEST > SERENWILDE > MAGNAGORA

In response to Malicia, Celest actually has more charisma once you factor in buffs than Serenwilde.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In closing, I want to say to everyone who is going on that things must be "balanced" because Serenwilde has the most villages, I would point out that Magnagora initially dominated the field. Serenwilde later dominated. These two organizations have the least charisma. Obviously, raw charisma or access to Laetitia doesn't override extreme effort.

However, the idea behind "balance" of skills is that everyone has a fairly equal chance. If we want to look at combat, questions we would ask are do for example Hartstone have an a fairly equal chance against a Paladin? I feel the answer is yes. With the right people using the available skills, neither the Paladin or the Hartstone in this case has an unfair advantage.

When we look at influencing, however, we have to keep our perspective in Influencing. While some people would love to call foul about X-random factor that isn't related, the focus is Influencing. In this light, I think it is very tricky. Serenwilde, Celest, and Glomdoring all have roughly the same charisma. As a result, Laetitia does give Celest an advantage assuming all other variables were constant. However for Magnagora, Laetitia doesn't, I feel, give them an advantage as much as it brings them up to par.

However with that said, I think the fairest suggestion so far would be that Laetitia cannot be cast while shattered. It certainly isn't the most ideal solution, but I think it would help bring equality in influencing.