It's worth pointing out that not every warrior takes Rituals, and if they don't then they don't get the +1 from Populus.

(Pretty much everything else you said was good though.)

Shamarah, name 25 warriors in Celest that didn't take Rituals. I will likewise name 25 who did.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but, I bet you can't pull 5 active Paladins who have Tracking. It just isn't that popular of a specialization.

I'm not saying many of them DO, I'm just saying they CAN.

Ok, sorry for being jumpy. I just find most people try to use that as some claim that charisma is "less" for Magnagora/Celest because of Trackers when in reality, we are talking about very very few people who take that specialty.

While the rest of your post was very thorough, I do want to point out one thing. Not all Serenwilde characters are Elfen. Not all Celest characters are Merian. I believe some Magnagoran characters are not Viscanti.

As a high charisma race is as equally (though not as popularly) available to any organization, there really is no grounds for saying that any additional nation skill or mechanic should compensate for a particular aspect of the specialization race. There may be changes that are limited to the specialization race itself, which could compensate, but any excessive bonuses to the organization as a whole will simply make those who choose to play a good charisma race, far more powerful than any other.

Could Viscanti have some kind of bonus in another area if deemed necessary (aside from constitution)? Sure. Should every Magnagoran character be improved in influence because Viscanti's are not a charismatic race? I sure hope not.

Lets take it a step further, and include populations! Whee! Using Narsrim's numbers, and getting the average charisma, then multiplying by the numbers in Top Guilds (Which, while not precice, are general indicators of the population of a group) We come out with the order being Celest, Serenwilde, Glomdoring, Magnagora (3915, 3668, 2352, and 1800, respectively). Ok, now lets add in a 'factor' for Laetitia, say an increase of a half. That makes Celest 5872.5 and Magnagora 2700, pushing Magnagora up a slot on the list, becoming Celest, Serenwilde, Magnagora, Glomdoring! Getting closer to what the current status-quo is at the moment.... So now we have the ones with the most charisma people at the top, and those with the least charisma people at the bottom. Now, other factors in the equation for Best Village Influencing Organization in the Basin would have to be 1) Frequency of High Population during Revolts. 2) Well-trained Debators and Influencers. 3) Well-trained Combatants (for the angry revolts). 4) Excellent Coordination of Efforts. The two organizations which currently possess the highest levels of these are, obviously, Serenwilde and Magnagora. The levels obvously fluxuate greatly, but you could say that over time, it averages out to about the same for both of them. Lets give all those factors a value of 3. This makes Serenwilde 11004 and Magnagora 8100, and the overall order back to Serenwilde, Magnagora, Celest, Glomdoring. Lo and behold, it matches what the current Politics would suggest!

Yes, I think that pretty much sums up the history of village influencing, and foretells what will happen in the future with celest/glomdoing flesh out a more as organizations. (we're already seen a new influx of players, so it's only a matter of time)

One inconsistency in your otherwise completely comprehensive grasp on all skills that give cha boosts, you didn't factor in Faeling warriors from Glomdoring with lowmagic. (I doubt there are many, as they'd want the +1 to str (geburah) from highmagic more then the +1 to con (yellow) from lowmagic, but it's still something missing from the chart.)

Assigning numbers to non-numerical doesn't float with me. Infact, very little of this argument does. It seems more like a bunch of random numbers thrown together and then fiddled with until they resemble something which may, on a stormy night, be considered to be similar to our current conditions. The fact you're working off of TopGuilds instantly throws it away. Even so, why are 'Well-trained combatants' given a rating of 3 and not 1, or 50? Very little of this argument seems to be able to hold water.. In fact, even if the argument were submerged beneath the sea, I'm quite sure the water would move away from an argument with as little credible value as this one. Sorry.


I didn't meant to refer to water quite as much as I did.

I agree wholeheartedly. It was mostly a slightly sarcastic point to the fact that anyone can make anything seem like anything they want, if they twist things a certain way. People that don't have Laetitia will make Laetitia seem bad. People that don't have high Charisma will make that lack seem more important. Its the way things work. The simple fact is that Serenwilde has done quite well, despite their lack of Laetitia. Magnagora has done quite well, despite their lack of high charisma. Why is this? The two organizations are able to work with their advantages to minimise their disadvantages. The other two organizations have not been able to do the same thing to the same level of effectiveness yet. Will this change? Most certainly. Celest will begin to become more organized, and Glomdoring will do the same. Number do indeed have a major part in the 'equation' of balance. As more people go to Celest and Glomdoring, and the numbers balance out, the villages will return to a more even distribution. Im sure the Admin are also working on ways to make things more balanced, village-wise. I personally don't think that changing Laetitia, or giving some groups 'more charisma' would be the way to do it.

There are a lot more than you appear to believe.

alright, then that just confirms my point closing the gap between glom and celest on the pure (who collectively can have more ego on the field) part of it.

While yes, I did forget to add it in for Crow Shadowlord Faeling's with Lowmagic, I did remember for thos with Night

==============================================

Avaer,

I reason I didn't include other races is because they are all equally available. As a result, the factor they provide to the situation becomes a matter of player choice and not a matter of mechanics. However, the certain races (the specialist races) are only available to certain organizations and tend to be more popular above other races in said organizations.




The difference, however, is that my numbers are fact. There is no debating what the charisma or potential charisma of a certain race is.

You attempt to obfuscate that by bs-ing numbers and then trying to apply them to the situation as if they are of equal substance is rather crude and more so - ineffective.

Haha, right. And the shere volume of numbers + multiple skills that allow for a higher charisma and make debating/influencing against you nigh pointless unless you suck at debating. Lusternia is an unbalanced realm and someone else already pointed out that communes have the monopoly on alchemy which isn't fair at all. Laetitia doesn't even help that much since how much ego you lose in one go is depending on how many times you lost, if you're losing a debate laetitia won't save your ass at all, you will lose.

Not that true. I saw Vesar lose several arguments in a row to other players while being chanted by two people, diverting and influencing a denizen. Around 95% of the time, he still managed to shatter the player debating against him.

Granted, he is very good, but the point is that he lost several rounds in a row while being chanted. Without the chanters he would have been shattered easily.

I can shatter someone with defensive debating, a denizen hitting at me and getting 2 heavy hits after eachoter without a chanter, giving I'm using the right race, have enough bromide and enough sparkleberry, doesn't mean anything. And if he is diverting the denizen, it doesn't hit at him. Also if Vesar's victory is such a big factor, post a full log instead of claiming several hits in a row. The nature of the hit for example is a big factor, Vesar's sipping and sparkle eating is a big factor (if this wasn't in delport or a sanc, his staff plays a factor). If Vesar only had once chanter, he would be getting the same healing as with two by the way.

Incidently Shorlen has survived two sequential heavy hits from me while I was a faeling with beauty blessing. So it's not city people alone that have this ability.

Laetitia plays a role yes, or we wouldn't use it. But for good debaters like Vesar, it isn't the major part.

I realize this, but it is not quite correct to say that the specialist races alone determine the charisma of an organization. They will likely determine the average charisma, but they cannot be used in any determination of what organization-only mechanics are necessary for balance.

Note that Vesar was able to sustain 3 successful hits in a row. And then influence. On the seventh loss, I sustained 5640 ego damage. On the seventh win (which was further into the debate, hence more powerful), Vesar cannot have sustained this amount.

Oh, and forgot this:



I have 20 ego, I believe Vesar had 19. We were both at level 79 at the time

You didn't get the hint after that 5k -> 200 ego hit. I'd have left the room, let things drift away, then come back.

He didn't attack you either. People have observed here that defensive debating is almost always the best way to win.