Page 9 – Lusternia

Unknown2006-02-21 03:29:23Show/Hide

QUOTE(morik @ Feb 21 2006, 03:20 AM) 260756

You didn't get the hint after that 5k -> 200 ego hit. I'd have left the room, let things drift away, then come back.

He didn't attack you either. People have observed here that defensive debating is almost always the best way to win.

I figured that if we were were at the stage of dealing 5.5k damage, there was a chance he'd go down in one hit, which is the only way to win, especially with chanters it seems.

He also didn't need to attack me. I shattered myself on him, just by the nature of debating. All he had to do was wait for a loss (I'm surprised he didn't use one of the last two), and strike at me. Either a win or draw would probably have done it.

I'll also point out that you can't always use defensive debating. If there is a way to stop someone influencing a mobile, using defensive debating, please elaborate.

Anisu2006-02-21 08:33:28Show/Hide

when someone engages you in debate, and it doesn't matter if this person shatters or not, defensive debating is divine. Anyone that doesn't defensive debate under these circumstances either doesn't know what they are doing or isn't doing it out of princible.

Any faeling with trans influencing (for the ego damage cut) could of pulled this off.

another test, I asked Morik to use all 3 debatings on me while I was on analytical

CODE

Morik passionately presents his case, fervently arguing his points with
emotional appeals. With absolutely no readily available facts upon which to
analyze the argument, you can only frown and shake your head in frustration,
conceding this emotional outburst to Morik.
4171h, 3934m, 3088e, 10p ex-

The corners of Morik's mouth turn up as he grins mischievously.
4171h, 3934m, 3088e, 10p ex-

Morik argues with sweeping authority, buttressing his broad claims with
dogmatic assumptions and justifications. With great glee, you rip apart his
arguments with brilliant logic, transforming the entire discourse into an
example of absurdity.
4171h, 3934m, 3152e, 10p ex-

Morik takes a drink from an opal vial.
4171h, 3934m, 3152e, 10p ex-

Morik Whitbaum says, "There, all of them."
4171h, 3934m, 3152e, 10p ex-

Morik unscrupulously quibbles about the smallest points in his argument,
bringing up esoteric minutiae to support his radical theories. The logic of
this argument is sound and you find yourself conceding to all the points
raised.
4171h, 3934m, 2246e, 10p ex-

I was Lucidian at the time of the test, Morik a merian lord. As a faeling I have a lot more ego, but at this moment Morik couldn't of gotten me with 3 succefull debates if I sipped only once.

So it's not unusual to take 3 hits

Morik2006-02-21 08:54:07Show/Hide

yeah, but I have 12 cha.

Unknown2006-02-21 08:55:23Show/Hide

QUOTE(Anisu @ Feb 21 2006, 08:33 AM) 260830

So it's not unusual to take 3 hits

I don't think you understand the log. The debate continued until there was a ratio of 4 wins to 7 losses. The last loss had cost me 5.5k ego. Then there were three SUCCESSFUL debates against Vesar, not a win loss and draw. That meant that the seventh win came at a time AFTER the seventh loss, and so would have been more powerful as debating power increases over time.

Yet, even after 4 prior wins, three straight hits was not enough to noticeably faze him. Note that had my last three losses occured sequentially, and without waiting for my ego to be restored, they would have easily finished me.

Try testing this. Engage a debate with someone where you follow the pattern shown above. Even without letting it get to the level it reached there, allow at least 2 or 3 successful hits before you begin to test. Then, strike them without pause with 3 winning debate moves.

Anisu2006-02-21 09:09:24Show/Hide

QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 21 2006, 09:55 AM) 260839

I don't think you understand the log. The debate continued until there was a ratio of 4 wins to 7 losses. The last loss had cost me 5.5k ego. Then there were three SUCCESSFUL debates against Vesar, not a win loss and draw. That meant that the seventh win came at a time AFTER the seventh loss, and so would have been more powerful as debating power increases over time.

Yet, even after 4 prior wins, three straight hits was not enough to noticeably faze him. Note that had my last three losses occured sequentially, and without waiting for my ego to be restored, they would have easily finished me.

Try testing this. Engage a debate with someone where you follow the pattern shown above. Even without letting it get to the level it reached there, allow at least 2 or 3 successful hits before you begin to test. Then, strike them without pause with 3 winning debate moves.

I have debated for long times with people just for fun (I debate laxinova all the time) and I know how ego damage increases, however it never increased for me out of bromide + sparkleberry combo. At most if I'm defensive debating, Laetita is mainly to safe a bit on bromides or sparkleberry. The main problem is when I hit unsuccefully because it hurts me a LOT more then getting attacked with a succesfull debate.

Morik char 12 to the char 11 of a lucidian?

Unknown2006-02-21 09:21:40Show/Hide

QUOTE(Anisu @ Feb 21 2006, 09:09 AM) 260848

Morik char 12 to the char 11 of a lucidian?

I don't think its the difference that is important. You're doing an attack that uses your charisma to calculate damage and speed.

Also, can you explain what your posted log is intended to show?

Anisu2006-02-21 10:28:52Show/Hide

QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 21 2006, 10:21 AM) 260851

I don't think its the difference that is important. You're doing an attack that uses your charisma to calculate damage and speed.

Also, can you explain what your posted log is intended to show?

that 3 sequential losses doesn't mean that Vesar survived because he had chanters. And thus that your log doesn't say anything about the power of laetitia.

and believe me CHAR 18 - 20 is a huge difference because I have 5k ego instead of 3k.

Narsrim2006-02-21 10:30:05Show/Hide

This could be easily tested. I don't see why someone doesn't post a log that mirrors exactly what Avaer posted minus the chanters.

I see no reason for speculation.

Unknown2006-02-21 11:29:40Show/Hide

QUOTE(Anisu @ Feb 21 2006, 10:28 AM) 260862

that 3 sequential losses doesn't mean that Vesar survived because he had chanters. And thus that your log doesn't say anything about the power of laetitia.

and believe me CHAR 18 - 20 is a huge difference because I have 5k ego instead of 3k.

Your log doesn't show three losses. It shows a win, a loss, and a draw.

Anisu2006-02-21 11:46:42Show/Hide

QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 21 2006, 12:29 PM) 260870

Your log doesn't show three losses. It shows a win, a loss, and a draw.

it shows the base damage, even if you would get 500 extra a hit each time you win so 1000, 1500, 2000(and you don't) I still wouldn't be scattered if I sipped bromides. Your log also fails to prove anything concerning laetitia because vesar didn't put a single hit towards you and didn't come in a situation where normal healing would not be enough, I see him rarely use sparkleberry or even bromides in that log. Someone said he had returned some attacks, and this was why I was curious to your log. However at most it shows how overpowered defensive debating is.

Unknown2006-02-21 12:35:58Show/Hide

QUOTE(Anisu @ Feb 21 2006, 11:46 AM) 260873

it shows the base damage, even if you would get 500 extra a hit each time you win so 1000, 1500, 2000(and you don't) I still wouldn't be scattered if I sipped bromides. Your log also fails to prove anything concerning laetitia because vesar didn't put a single hit towards you and didn't come in a situation where normal healing would not be enough, I see him rarely use sparkleberry or even bromides in that log. Someone said he had returned some attacks, and this was why I was curious to your log. However at most it shows how overpowered defensive debating is.

Your log shows the damage from a first hit win, with 11 charisma. The concern of my log is the fifth, sixth and seventh hit, with 20 charisma.

Why does Vesar need to hit me to prove anything?

Edit: Incidentally, that first hit win with 11 charisma in your log did 906 ego damage.

Anisu2006-02-21 12:57:53Show/Hide

QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 21 2006, 01:35 PM) 260888

Your log shows the damage from a first hit win, with 11 charisma. The concern of my log is the fifth, sixth and seventh hit, with 20 charisma.

Why does Vesar need to hit me to prove anything?

Edit: Incidentally, that first hit win with 11 charisma in your log did 906 ego damage.

Morik had 12, I had 11. And the reason he has to hit you is because if he hits you on a defense and loses, he loses a lot of ego, if you immediatly hit him with a winner, he would be very close if not debated out.

It has been stated many times that defensive debating is to powerfull and to profitable. the one attacking is always in a serious disadvantage.

There is no problem with laetitia, or not one that will drasticly change debating. Take the root of the problem, wich is debating itself. I'll gladly have laetitia as an enchantable item.

Unknown2006-02-21 13:14:22Show/Hide

QUOTE(Anisu @ Feb 21 2006, 12:57 PM) 260889

Morik had 12, I had 11. And the reason he has to hit you is because if he hits you on a defense and loses, he loses a lot of ego, if you immediatly hit him with a winner, he would be very close if not debated out.

It has been stated many times that defensive debating is to powerfull and to profitable. the one attacking is always in a serious disadvantage.

There is no problem with laetitia, or not one that will drasticly change debating. Take the root of the problem, wich is debating itself. I'll gladly have laetitia as an enchantable item.

As Narsrim says... show this by repeating it without any chanting.

Sivriel2006-02-21 17:24:07Show/Hide

Laetitia ~ Bromide

Laetitia + Bromide Keg > Bromide + Bromide Keg

Divert =

(but everyone can have it)

Laetitia + Bromide Keg + Divert =

Solution:
1. Divert should cost 800 ego and can only be used by people wearing flowers.

2. Bromide Kegs should revolt along with villages and refuse service as long as villages are undecided. (Except for Dwarves. Dwarves may use Bromide Kegs whenever the mines are up.) That includes the hidden ninja village.

Vix2006-02-21 22:49:21Show/Hide

QUOTE(Sivriel @ Feb 21 2006, 11:24 AM) 260918

Solution:
1. Divert should cost 800 ego and can only be used by people wearing flowers.

^Change it to people wearing nothing. Most effective diversion there is!

You know, this could actually work if clothing had more of an influence. Nakedness should drastically (and I mean drastically) reduce influencing capabilities.

Narsrim2006-02-21 22:55:54Show/Hide

Cute, but this is really just another one of your sadistic attempts to get Nejii to agree to take off all his clothing (not that he needs any with all that fur, but I digress) around you!

Vix2006-02-21 23:00:03Show/Hide

Narsrim2006-02-21 23:21:22Show/Hide

(Serenwilde): Vix says, "NEED A DIVERTER NOW!."

(Serenwilde): You say, "What? What's going on?"

(Serenwilde): Vix says, "Nejii! You are the only person around who can divert! Huuuuurry"

(Serenwilde): Nejii say, "Ok, I'll flow to you."

:Nejii flows:

:Nejii arrives at a strange location with candle lit and soft music playing in the background:

And well, you can imagine where it goes from there.

Yrael2006-02-21 23:42:53Show/Hide

QUOTE(Wesmin @ Feb 19 2006, 11:46 PM) 260175

Alright, so depending on how fast your chanters eq recovery is determains how many chanters you need, maybe 2 humans, but only 1 merian?

Or one mugwump with a decent sized mana pool.

Shiri2006-02-22 01:35:59Show/Hide

QUOTE(Narsrim @ Feb 21 2006, 10:55 PM) 261066

Cute, but this is really just another one of your sadistic attempts to get Nejii to agree to take off all his clothing (not that he needs any with all that fur, but I digress) around you!

This is exactly why he needs clothes!

(And yay, Siv on forums,

)

Laetitia

by Unknown