The difference is moot. The fact is quite simply we are saying it is "ok" for some, but not "ok" for others on the basis of charisma and character appeal.

That's lame, and quite honestly, its wrong. The very idea that players should be potentially punished on a such a basis is perhaps the single most corrupt suggestion to ever hit forums.

I find it amusing that everytime you're labelled a griefer, you bring me up. *shrug*

I'm just calling it as it is:

Shorlen got his shop robbed. He has threatened to quit if the goods are not returned by divine action. He goes on the record as saying there wasn't a problem with the stealing, but the fact that he doesn't like "how" Voron did it. He said quite clearly if Yrael had robbed my shop even though he'd be in the EXACT same position, it would be ok.

He then creates a thread about how players who "grief" should be able to be petitioned. If this were the case, they could get in trouble in some shape or form. However as stated, "griefing" isn't what you do - it is how you do it and apparently how vulnerable you make yourself appear afterward.

I object. I find this extremely distasteful and corrupt. As Shorlen has stated, Voron is a thief. Yrael is a thief. However, Voron should be punished for stealing, but Yrael shouldn't. The only difference is Yrael has a reputation of being a thief and is often cute with it.

That's sickening and the height of hypocrisy.

EDIT:

Malicia said it best to me in private earlier. If I would pooka a key off Urazial, Shayle, etc. and rob a shop, forums would enter a nuclear meltdown of flaming. If Yrael was to do this to anyone, it would be swept under the rug as "well, Yrael is a thief." This goes on a lot in Lusternia.

Probably because you're disliked extremely. Case proven. Tuek got away with robbing a store.. twice.. I think, maybe more. Noone gave a damn except "son of a..". Happy? I've stolen one - count it, one - thing since I've been back, Cooper's pack, for some working cash. Now I've gotten my investment back, he's getting his items back - the invite to the wedding, the 2 gold, and the 200 steel I got from melting his rapiers for working cash. Terrible rapiers, too.

I think I see Narsrim's point here.

Subjective reasoning is not only valid but an encourageable aspect of IG life, since being 'goody goody' isn't really good RP. People, even good people, will be, at times, hypocrits, liers, and 'rationalizers'. That's our characters.

The OOC rules, though, CAN'T fall under the same guideline. We DO need to have a full rock solid rule about what can and cannot work. Besides, given how well we link ourseleves as 'Magnagoran' or "Serenwilder' in the OOC forums, can you really trust it not to turn into a full on OOC war between us?

The divine already stated that they'll keep a watch for absolute griefers. Won't that do?

Hello! That's my point.

Griefing is not a matter of what you do, it is a matter of how nice you are after it.

Right. Except for hte fact that.... Hrm, Voron is inactive for months at a time, except for the few minutes when he comes back to rob a shop. Making it *impossible* to take action against him. Sort of like Aebrin - You can't take RP action agaisnt what you can't take ANY action against.

That's so misplaced. Skyla was robbed by Yrael. What could Skyla do to replace the IRL MONTHS of time she put into it? Why yes, someone could kill him. Yrael isn't exactly a basher. He doesn't exactly seem to care about dying for the sake of stealing so truthfully:

Please explain in as much detail as you can what RP action could be taken against someone who steals like Yrael versus Voron. I am curious to see besides one death per person, if anything can replace MONTHS of loss.

EDIT:

The people who make this argument seem to think they can actually do more to someone sitting in their city behind 100 guards, statues, etc. than they can someone who hides at the Portal of Fate. Likewise, Yrael went inactive for "months at a time" and is only recently active so I really don't see how Voron, other than being relatively incognito, is all that different.

I went inactive for months at a time before I was given the boot, Narsrim.

Does that matter in the grand scheme of things? I think it is obvious that immunity comes in many forms. Being inactive is definately one of them - but it isn't the only one. If you never left Magnagora or the Nihilist guild hall, what exactly could someone to do you there they couldn't do while you weren't there besides beg?

Jack all. I can get into cities - with and without ghost - easily. Not into communes, being that flow and wisp sort of make it completely and utterly impossible. It shouldn't be hard to take me from the Megalith, incapacitate and drop me in seconds and leave again. Flying works, after all. And no, I don't sit in the Nihilist guild hall - I've been in there, twice.

Wow Yrael. Someone is going to kill you once, you'll conglutinate, lose 1%, and they can't kill you for 30 days to make up for your stealing MONTHS AND MONTHS OF HARDWORK.

Would you not agree that isn't very feasible? Likewise, you can't even fly into the Megalith because it is indoors. You'd have to get through the guards and statues around it first.

There are no guards around it, just like there aren't any in Celest. You land, you beckon (god knows it's easy enough), you go nuts. Steal, if you feel like it, god knows people attempt it enough.

You know what'd be nice Narsrim? If you didn't turn every thread in which you were labelled a griefer, or there was a possibility of it, into a discussion of me.

I've been trying to find some sad violin music to post a link to, but my efforts so far have been for naught

Honestly, what is your point in responding? You try and justify causing immense grief to people to the point they wanted to quit by some off-the-wall absolutely bs theory about how they could strike back. If it really freakin mattered to you, you'd heartstop, conglutinate, and get grace. At which point, Magnagora would later add guards.

And I'm sick - absolutely sick - of the double standards of people in Lusternia. Voron has nothing NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING that you have not done and yet people talk as if he should be banned, but some of those same people go so far as to defend you. Likewise because I have opted to play a character who is arrogant, nasty to his enemies, and wicked, I am faced with constant accusations that I do X and it is a horrible, vicious, cruel, hateful act when other people can do X minus being arrogant, nasty, and wicked (or perhaps just as much except less vocal) and it is tolerated with almost no questioning.

This thread attempts to suggest how selective persons will be punished not based on their actions, but their attitudes. It attempts to justify that being guilty is not a matter of what you do, but how you do it. I understand that charisma and appeal are powerful influencing factors. I recognize their impact in society, both in the real world and Lusternia; however, I am utterly disturbed that people who are also aware of them would then try and USE THEM to strike out at people.

And be that I may kill people, I may kill guards, I may harvest in forbidden land, I have never stolen from someone. I have never in a single action erased months of progress and hard work.

I don't try to justify it, you . I say what I do, and I give bits back on occasion. If you don't like it, try and have it changed in a constructive manner, but stop ejaculating such pure and utter crap over the forums.

EDIT: Watch your language. ~Shiri~

I've made clear the reality of this thread. The only reason you object is because *gasp* you really aren't any better of a person than Voron. You steal. He steals. You are both thieves.

If he should burn in hell, you should too - even if you steal and *sometimes* give items back after you likely torture and ransom the crap out of people as they degrade themselves begging. I've talked to people who have taken this route. It was cruel and perhaps worse than how Voron opperates.

No, I object because all you ever - EVER - do is try to deny you're a griefer while heaping it all onto me. Really? I'd like to meet these people. Be nice to see people who've been talking to imaginary me. I'm done with this thread - Narsrim. You're a twat, and a griefer, for the pure fun that griefing gives you. I steal, which causes grief. Happy?

I'm not posting here anymore, enjoy.

We all know that biased outlooks are rampant on these forums and in game. After awhile, it just becomes tiring even dealing with it and the rationalizations people come up with on why it is ok for X to do something, but not Y to do the same thing. Then again, Lusternia is nothing but a social microcosm of the real world. So people do not so much as forget their problems and biases while playing, but instead carry them into the game.

So, I prefer to leave the official determination of whether a person is a griefer or not in the hands of the Admin. Most of them have a direct interest in the wellbeing of the realm, and therefore less likely to be swayed by the views of various cliques of people. Leaving it in the hands of players could just turn it into a popularity contest or even worse some social weapon.

The point of this thread, however, was to trying and say X should be punished for Y action when Z who also does Y action shouldn't because of some silly, stupid factor such as nice they are about it.

I'm fully aware that some people consider me a griefer. I don't deny that. I accept that. I do deny, however, that my actions are vastly different from certain other persons. The difference is how we do it and what we say afterwards, but the bottomline is that I kill people, I kill guards, I raid. Other people kill people, they kill guards, and they raid... however, one person is "bad" for the game and is terrible, yet another is a-ok.

It is nothing short of the impact of bias on opinion. I don't deny that I'm not also guilty, but I also don't go around ranting about how we should punish, ban, or likewise do things to people because its ok for my friends to do something, but it isn't ok for my enemies.

EDIT:

And Yrael, I personally like you. I apologize if you think this is a personal attack, but your name was compared to Voron and given the lack of thieves, you are the only real, concrete example I have.