Forget it, I forgot how loud griefers were. Volume is all that matters on these forums anyway.

I think that's the root of the issue. You aren't concerned about action, but rather the vocal outburst that follows. Don't you find that a bit misplaced? A "griefer" is not someone who steals, kills, etc. A "griefer" is someone who does it and then talks about it -or- is just rude about it.

Isn't that just a bit folly?

A griefer is someone who acts with the primary intent of making other players miserable.

And who are you to read minds? Who is anyone to say that Yrael steals to steal, but Voron steals to make people miserable.

I hate to break it to you Shorlen, but Skyla was torn apart when Yrael raided her shop. She was honest to god miserable and I know this because she told me. She wanted to quit Lusternia. She thought she had nothing left to salvage.

And yet you have the audacity in another thread to say it would have been ok if Yrael raided your shop, but Voron should get in trouble as if one person is better than the other. You then talk about Voron being inactive and you can't do anything to him. You can't do anything to Yrael either. While we can all have these fantasy Megalith snipe/steal dreams, it would never happen.

It goes to show how you want to punish people on your own subjective personal feelings. If you like someone and they do something bad, its ok - but by god if they aren't your buddy list, they are terrible people who should suffer.

Wtf?

a griefer is someone who's action cause other people grief, and the said griefer doesn't care or is rude to them making them feel like crap about it.

If people like Yrael but he steals from them, then Yrael isn't griefing, he's fun about it and at the end of the day if the victim doesn't feel like they hate playing then its not griefing.

When i kill people, I'll nail them IC and be unrelenting, but i also often send a tell with (( )) around it to denote ooc, and give them a few pointers / say no grief intended and don't take it personally / have a bit of a laugh with them, then no it's not griefing.

Griefing isn't the acts you do, it's a small amount of the reasons behind said actions plus a bucketload of not-being-an-asshole about it.

I never grief anyone who never taunted me, but taunt me and you won't like me much.

...and are 50 charactors 90% of the population? The Moondancers have something like 2000 dormant members at the moment, and yet active members are much smaller, and total members who sign on every day are that much smaller. I don't see more then 50some people on useally, but that's discrediting a lot of people who do play, but not 24/7.

There is little to no way to determain that 50 actual people are doing it, unless all of those 50 people have bought credits and Lusternia has records of them.

I could just say that I don't like Tsuki, hop around a few college campus's on a bunch of my friends computers, make charactors and get her "locked in".

Edit:And yes, there are currentally already methods in place to work out your ISSUES with people. I see no reason this needs to be put in. Plus, it's got a freaky Puritan Witch trials vibe to it as well.

Erm, thanks for ignoring the parts where I mentioned "active, not dormant," and "player, not character."

ok... so come up with a way that Lusternia can tell how many PLAYERS they have, and not just alts on differant computers who havn't bought credits yet?

That is completly wrong narsrim. What voron does is wrong because as people have said there is no way for anyone to get back at him he dosnt have a charater in the game, he contributes nothing to the game what so ever he just takes from it, Yrael roleplays, joins in conflict and also steals you want to get back at yrael you can go for it. Its got nothing to do with Yrael being liked ic or ooc, I personally have no positive feelings for yrael really. Its all about concquences really yrael has to face some that hurt him voron dosnt seem to have to. Im just saying though ive never met voron so this is all second hand reports and I dont really know yrael but it dosn't really matter about the actual person your talking about if your just discussing the principal of the thing but if it makes anyone feel better feel free to replace yrals name with (someone who steals, roleplays and adds constructively to the game) and replace vorons name with (someone who just steals and does anything else constructive to the game)




This is also incorrect, no one has said its alright for yrael to steal because he apparently has charisma. They have said its accetable for him to steal because he actually contributes to the game and you can get him back for it because he is a part of the game, Voron as people has said does nothing to benefit the game what so ever so has nothing you can punish him with.

This has nothing to do with how popular someone is narsrim.



This again is also incorrect, shorlen would not be in the same position if yrael had robbed her as shorlen could do something harmful to yrael in revenge and continue being harmful to yrael until yrael gives the items back, as everyones said before voron just steals and contributes nothing in game so cant be punished by players.


You said it yourself narsrim in a different topic its all about consequences if your actions have no consequences, well whats the point? Please have the same standards on this subject as you have on exp loss narsrim.



Again voron cant be punished in game by shorlen, Yrael can. Well as far as I can see, unless you can come up with a method of punishing voron because I cant come up with one yet, if you can come up with a method of punishing voron then everyones whole argument is moot then because it proves he is part of the game and not just someone who steals.



There would be some shock and surprise that you did it because you constantly condem a thief like Yrael then you go and do the same thing you've been condeming. People would vent and then find a in game method of getting you back. Thats what I see happening lots of shouting posts calling you a hypocrite etc etc. Its got nothing to do with you doing it really aside from you being vocal about theft. Meh if I started stealing in achaea after complaining about it for so long everyone would have a fit as well.

I've not seen voron in game before so im just going on shorlen and second hand reports but effectivly shorlen believes he can get back at yrael if he stole from her shorlen dosn't believe she can get back at voron.

Unlike last time, Voron was dumb enough to log back in, and we could do SOMETHING about it. Not as much as had it be Yrael, as Yrael has a city we can blame, and friends we can attack in retaliation should he do such a thing, etc.

The difference between a griefer and an RP theif is thus - Yrael will steal from people he has good justification to steal from, and have a character he plays out while he does it. Voron will steal from you, mock you if he feels like it, and start singing in... I think it was russian? And quit whenever things get heated.

oh god, COME ON PEOPLE...


"help issues"


This conversation is over.

Forget it, it was a bad idea. I put it up here because I was sick and tired of every post in the Idiots section being about the same three people. Voron wasn't even one of the people I was thinking about when I made this thread.

Ah it seems you misunderstood me, I ment that sentence to mean there are no ways for you to get back at thieves like voron in game, you can get back at thieves like yrael in game, issues is an occ thing. Sorry if that sentence wasn't completely clear. It was invented as a kind of example that I don’t think there are double standards to thieves I just think there are two different types of thieves the ic roleplay thief who contributes to the game and who you can get back at and the thief who just steals and contributes nothing to the game, sorry I didn’t make my post clearer though.

Ferlas,

Instead of writing a lengthy post, I'm going to add that you entire post on me being wrong is well... wrong.

All items except for the gold have been recovered from Voron. That's a LOT more than Skyla got back from Yrael so...

As far as I see it, you have it backwards. There are people who were robbed by Yrael (who incidently did go inactive shortly after doing so) and thus nothing could be done... and Voron, the untouchable, was just robbed and the items were retrieved.

This is only because Voron broke his previous tendencies and actually logged back on multiple times within a few days of stealing. The thread was created with the assumption that he would not be logging back on for months. Since he did, he was put in almost the same category as Yrael- someone who is actually around to take action against. Obviously, the way you conduct yourself does affect things somewhat.

Xenthos,

I'm not saying conduct doesn't count IC. Of course it should. However, people want to take that IC conduct and turn it into an OOC punishment based upon their ability to infer intent, emotion, etc. on someone.

If you do X and you pull it off or you do X, pull it off and are a jerk - I expect people to respond better to the person who wasn't a jerk... but you can't turn around later and say because you do X (such as stealing), you should get in trouble because you did it and were a jerk, but someone else did the EXACT same thing and wasn't.

There has to be objective standards to judge what is wrong and what is right. This thread suggests twisting the objective standards (which would be set down by people like Estarra, Roark, etc) into a popularity contest.

This topic was never about Voron. Please read the first post again.

Sorry for not clarifying, but when I said "the thread" instead of "this thread," I was referring to the one that you made specifically about him.

I think we can infer that Voron was a consideration given the arguments you made were made about Voron. You called him a "griefer" and as this thread deals with anti-griefing meaures.

Ya as I said I don't know voron at all or yreal very well. I was just using there names, and as xenthos said I was going on everyone elses reports that voron just steals and does nothing else constructive just quits after stealing so then for you couldn't punish him. From now on I wont use his or yraels name, you just seemed to be arguing that (someone who just steals and does nothing anything else constructive to the game) was on equal terms as (someone who steals, roleplays and adds constructively to the game) and that everyone was having double standards treating these two types of thieves differently, I disagreeded with you and felt that you should treat these two kinds of thieves differently in an ooc perspective. The point of the post still stands, if you want me to edit out the names though I will because you have said that you apparently proved that voron is punishable so yea he is a bad example.



As I said I was using their names as example switch them with bob and jane if you really want, you've punished the guy you say, maby he is constrictive to the game so basically we don't have any thieves who just steal for kicks instead of an actual reason which is pretty good then.

As a side question what did you actualy do to punish him for the theft? If you are allowed to say anyway?