Lowering PK loss for dying in a raid would be interesting. Perhaps create another ministry, the Ministry of War, and let the Minister call raids into a village, spending Power, spawning some soldiers to lower the attack power of guards, and lowering experience loss in that village? I think I'll post that on ideas...

Just to throw out a thought, I do believe I read in article by Matt once that combat was the centre of IRE games. That's why 99% of our abilities are combat related. How many merchant, gardener, etc. classes do you see? Zero.

==============================================

And as for the random jumping, that in itself could have an explanation. First, you may have said something to the person to offend them either directly or indirectly. Perhaps they were hired by someone (say a Seren) who can't touch you. There are all sorts of reasons.

People usually don't randomly attack people because there is NO (read: NO) gain. Furthermore, if the person is smart about it and is using vitae, there is likewise almost no loss.

First, Matt said that years ago before Lusternia even existed. If Estarra comes foward saying that the whole point of Lusternia is PvP and that we should all shut up because it's a PK MUD, I'll shut up, but the admin's decisions to further restrict PK seem to show otherwise, and actions speak louder than words.

Second, pretending random jumping doesn't happen is silly. You know it happens, you've probably done it yourself. I've been killed just for being a Seren or a Celestian. Not all killing that happens has a reason. Most, in fact, doesn't. The argument that there is no gain isn't valid; people PK for fun, and (I believe) to satisfy some twisted sense of adequacy by pwning some random lowbie in an online game (Okay, maybe not, but it sounds like it occasionally.

Hey now i have something to say about this...

Like Narsrim, i honetly believe that without any arties (I ONLY have artie weapons) and lvl 78 (easy to get by most standards) and one trans skill + mythical in another I could beat 95% of lusternia too.

In fact, going through a lot of my logs i notice the distinct lack of need for the majority of skillsets i've transed, and most of my fights come down to simply knighthood only with athletics supporting (surge against warrior and flex for +2 str but thats about it i'd say)

in ALL ire games, and in the majority of RPGs worldwide if you don't have the character skills as a BASE then you aren't going to be able to match others either.

Look at World of Warcraft, you could be the best damn player in the world but your lvl 30 character won't beat a level 60 who just turns on his autoattack directed at you.

Its the way RPGs work, IRE is different and player skill comes down to it, but player skill is all about how you use the SKILLS available to your class.

If you don't have all the available skills, and by that i mean you need at minimum 2 trans, then you are going to be beaten down very quickly.

I also don't have artifact flails, and my hamer damage stat is base 34, the lowest possible damage stat for ANY forged item and i believe that includes newbieclubs. I don't kill people in 2 hits, it takes me a few combos to kill even the most unskilled of combatants.

At the end of the day, yes its unfair to you because you don't have the skills, but its no reason at ALL to downgrade the people who's bought credits or earned them IC because you don't have them. The idea is you GET them otherwise you may as well go and play counterstrike where you all can easily get the same weapons.

Also, groups are powerful enough as it is if the people involved know what they are doing, just because someone wants to be a teaming little bitch, teams shouldn't be upgraded.

That is in itself a reason, you just don't think its a good enough one.

It's very rarely truly random.

It's random because you just have the bad luck of being the first Celestian or Serenwilder to walk in front of someone who's sitting there waiting to kill the first Celestian or Serenwilder who walks in front of them. It's a bad reason because, first there's no actual roleplay behind it and no attempt to bring roleplay into it, and second because it makes people angry and generally makes them less likely to come back to the game or get involved. Vitae doesn't really reduce losses for non-fighters; you come out of it without Power or defenses, and it's usually easy to get killed twice.

And the reason teams should be able to take out isolated fighters is both realism, and so that extremely powerful fighters (Like, say, Murphy or Narsrim) don't get such a huge advantage in raids when the only people defending against them have medium skills. It means that some people dominate whenever the other strong people aren't around, and generally makes the game frustrating for anyone trying to defend his org without help from a Champion or strong Security person. Those people will be less likely to defend their organizations later, and less likely to PvP, and less likely to buy credits.

Karma, meh I only really see it for getting buffs, Removing conglutinate would kill pk, One of the reasons why pk was poor in achaea was because when you got to a certain level it became imposiable to be active in pk and maintain that level. Conglut allows people to constantly remain active in pk, they dont suddenly get to level 85 and quit pk until they are a dragon.

Mark was poorly thought out I think and abused so much in achaea but champions as unprotected by the avenger would be fine.

But seriously Narsrim you were never issued in aetolia for killing someone standing one room outside of the landmarks? It happened to me a few times anyway.

I really dont see how people are saying aetolia or achaea pk is less restrictive than lusternian to be honest. I can just go and jump anyone I want on the highways in lusternia, I cant do that in aetolia or achaea. Another example I was jumped by a group of 5 people in a free pk zone in lusternia, I can now kill them one by one in the pk restriced zone without any trouble. In achaea or aetolia I get jumped by 5 people in a open pk zone then I see them in a pk restriced zone and I cant touch them at all.

I think you should look up the word random in the dictionary.

What you just described may be a "bad roleplay" reason but if I kill you because you are X, it is NOT random.



Of course I was, they were all dropped. The admins told me quite clearly I had aproximately 3-4 minutes to chase someone. In fact, an admin specifically sat down with me and discussed what I could and could not do. I never once got in trouble over landmarks.

Except for removing conglutinate...

Considering that the only reason person X is killed by Y instead of some other person in an organization Y hates is that X was at the wrong place at the wrong time, yeah, I'd call it random. Either way, you're arguing over semantics; what really matters is that, random or not, jumping people you don't know on the highways just because they're in a particular organization is bad roleplay, and worse, it makes people unhappy with the game.

I find people use the word "random" because they want to make it seem more of a "crime" than it was.

It sounds better to say, "I was randomly murdered in cold blood" versus "I was killed by X because our respective organizations have been engaging in hostilities."

As for it being bad roleplay, roleplay involves 2 parties. Do you ever roleplay the weak, fragile victim afterwards who was just assaulted and brutually injured for years to come after being pillaged and pilfered in the mountains?

You really could do more with it than you do

Ya that assumes they come into the landmark area, If you dont see them comming in and they are just standing outside and you see them basically setting up to kill you vibes rites or what ever you cant actually do a thing about it, I'd personally attack them but stoped doing it after I got issued and warned that attacking before they come into the landmark room is a no no, in lusternia I could just attack them and send them off. Example shorlen sitting outside the borders of glomdoring the other day I could have attacked if I had wanted to, in achaea or aetolia I wouldnt have been able to do anything to him.

*agree amaru* No removing conglut...ever..KTHXYE

Karmic cursing is stupid because it allows people to play the system using enemy territory, even going so far as to die deliberately in order to karmic curse individuals. Karmic knowledge and harmony are stupid as they allow people (specifically Guardians/Mages) to become Titans/Demigods with much greater ease. 10% extra experience cuts off a full tenth of the bashing it would otherwise take.

And in regards to the Achaean comparison: here, we're at the other extreme. It's stupidly easy to become a Titan or Demigod due to conglutination. If you are careful enough, you can actively participate in PK as often as you wish, and simply bash to keep up with any losses. It shouldn't be that way. As a consequence, we already have a good large number of Demigods (5+?) and several Titans. It took years for Achaea to get just one Dragon, and with good reason: because they're goddamn overpowered.

My basic ideas boil down to reducing the losses from PKing, yet also removing the positives from bashing, so that (in basic terms) newbies have an easier time of getting into PK, and highbies have a harder time retaining constant PVP activity at higher levels.

Your suggestions 2 & 3 are fine, and have been brought up many times before.

As for Karma, it's not going away. We've been told already that's just the way it is. If you can find improvements to the system, that might be a different story.

Champions being exempt from PK rules... hell no. They get benefits from being champion that makes defending easy - and that's quite enough. Suggesting that the admin should start manually sorting through PK-based issues regarding those 12 people when the system seems designed to avoid it doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not trying to be supercilious here, but I can really, honestly find no way to salvage karma. I just don't see the point of it, at all. Some of the karma blessings are absurdly overpowered, and karmic curses are derogatory to PK as a whole. Example: Person1 kills Person2. Person2 karmic curses Person1. Person1 laughs, bashes for an hour or two (or dips into his existing stockpile of karma: pray note that at one point I possessed two blessings and a 40% surplus), removes the curse, and is free to kill Person2 again. Person2 would be better off, in that instance, just saving the Suspect status so that Person1 will die if they touch them again.

I agree that Champions being exempt from the standard PK rules might be a slightly radical idea, but I still think Champions should recieve special considerations outside of their Champion artifacts. Example: perhaps Champions should automatically be able to defend guildmembers, regardless of whether or not they are allied: or maybe Champions could recieve a slight experience bonus/karma bonus for slaying enemies of their Guild/City. This would encourage Champions to participate in conflict more, and actually give them a tangible reward for doing so.

There already are rewards.



I think an artifact and the karma bonuses are great. Champions are just the part of the guild leadership that deal with security and defence, they aren't the most important people in the whole game (arguably). Guildmasters and Guild admin, who both have much more difficult and exhausting duties, don't get any bonuses at all.

Champions get no bonuses. They get powers to help them do their job, the same as Guildmasters or Admin. Your whiny tone makes this seem more like a complaint than an argument. Since your character can fight about as well as a cow in game, and therefore avoids and fears combat in all circumstances, it isn't your place to say that Admin and GMs have 'much more difficult and exhausting duties'. These are all value judgments.

Removing PK restrictions from Champions is not a 'reward' but another device which would help them fulfil their duties.

Personally I'd favour more specific improvements in PK, as a fast example:

- Karma removed
- Suspect limit removed
- Stupid declare system removed (bring back trampling and contagion)
- Avenger peacing removed
- Champions immune to Avenger
- Champions 'rescue' transports them to their guildmate and gives them a prismatic barrier (like trueheal, breakable if they act) instead of its current abusable mechanism
- Champions stronger/more powers

This kind of system would lead to PK disputes becoming 'battle of the Titans'. Two people fight. One gets rescued by his Champion. The remaining person, seeing the Champion, gets rescued by his. Battle ensues.

God regulated Player regulated PK (Gods appoint/dismiss Champs) is always going to be better than admin brute force regulation.

Please read prior post.


Yep. And the artifact and karma bonus. A nice little incentive to take up the position.


Aww. Poor thing. You're welcome to read whatever tone you like into other people's posts, though.


The cow legions have probably killed more people than Elryn has, for sure. I guess this is where I'm supposed to say something demeaning about your character in return, but from second-hand accounts when you used to play, you were a reasonable fighter. Good for you! Amaru wins Lusternia!

As for 'value judgements'... duh. Why would I argue something if I didn't judge it was worth it? From what I've seen in Seren and Glom guilds, the GA/GM have far more work and responsibilities to manage than the champions do. That doesn't mean the champions are any less valuable, or important. The point I was trying to make is that they aren't any more. No need to get defensive.


How? DEFEND (player). Tada!


Erm, I'm afraid I don't like any of those suggestions. Those darn judgements popping up again. If you want all PK disputes to be settled by 12 people, why not just grace everyone but them?

Actually the fastest dragon was 8 or 10 ic years he was a dragon at age 26 or 28 always mix my 6s and 8s up, it took rl years for someone to get dragon in achaea because no one actually realised how good it was.

You do realise that this is exactly why lusternia pk is much better than achaean? In achaea you have to quit pk to get a good level, in lusternia you dont without the great skill of conglut we wouldn't have people like daevos, or Ekard who can bash and fight as well. Conglutination means you arnt forced to be a basher only.

That was the biggest complaint from achaea pk loss was far to much when compared to gain, even if you won 90% of your fights at certain levels you still were losing far much exp than you could ever hope to gain back.

Hmm I do like the idea of guild champions being auto defened to all the guild mates though, thats a nifty idea.

Everyone has agreed that karma curses arnt that effective though thats true you dont really need to buff up champions to much though, most champions have admited that they would be just happy with the rescue command you already get a pet or a nifty hat, both of which are already getting looked at in the envoys?

The reason Lusternian PK is so much better than Achaean is the fact that Achaean PK rules are ludicruously complex. Lusternias are better, but insofar as I can see, not nearly as good as when Lusternia was first released. Simple PK rules - i.e. Avenger and nothing else - mean new players do not get confused; that it is much more difficult to "play" the system; that PK-related issues (things I revile above just about anything else) are cut down upon.

Here's a lovely vision for everyone, by the way: about an RL year or so down the line, when we're inundated with Demigods, what the hell will differentiate us from Achaea? Combat will be ruled by Titans and Demigods. So there are three choices: make Titan/Demigod harder to achieve; reduce the buff's given by Titan/Demigod (I think Kaervas himself said once that the stat bonuses alone are sweet, and anything else is just a bonus); or remove the positions entirely (which I dislike the idea of, as they are certainly useful RP devices, if nothing else).