Its pure bias, but not baseless.

Because of the Iraq war, in california people are looking at the issue of illegal immigrants.

Because of the Iraq war, Muslims in Europe have felt put on the defensive and have had to rethink about what it means being part of the world community.

Because of the Iraq war, some countries have become democracies, some have given up nuclear arms, some have become more capitalisistic, and because of the threat of more war, some coutnries have started paying closer attention to Iran and N. Korea, et al.

edit: I could go on, but I'm being interupted.

I have only seen a couple of bad things come out of this war.. Massive amounts of dead people and nonstop complaining from liberals. I'm sure conservatives were complaining thier mouths off during the Clinton years, but I never heard it, and it was when the repulicans were trying to impeach Clinton that I was wondering how they thought they would ever win an election again. Thankfully for them, the public memory is VERY short (as I can see from most points brought up in this thread) But overall, I think bringing to light the problems the world had during most of the 90s, and increasing the amount of freedom in various countries around the world, has been much more beneficial than it has done harm.

Hmm, by this statement then the United States and Israel should be enemies and not the allies they are today.

Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons?

Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

Did you know that Israel currently occupies territories of two sovereign nations (Lebanon and Syria) in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?

Did you know that Israel refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?

Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?

Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?

I'm not trying to attack Israel here, only show that hey...even "allies" of the United States can be just as shady as an "enemy".

These facts are brought to you courtesy of www.doublestandards.org

Anytime someone mentions Israel and the U.N. I have to laugh... especially when it comes to double standards.

However, it may be intersting to note that the history of Israel breaks and has broken every historical trend, and has yet to have started a historical trend. Such is the curse.

Holy CRAP, Penelope, I just went to that website you quoted, and its basically an al'qeda website...

Not a single article on the double standards of the Muslim world, instead just all of Bin-laden's speaches word for word, without commentary, and the speaches fo Taliban abbassadors spoken unfiltered as truth. Everything else on that website concerning the "west" is pure editorial with almost 0 facts to back it up save other websites of the same persuasion.


That has to be one thing I REALLY like about the Iraq war, I don't have to be scared about websites like this, like I did in the 90s because nomatter what people say to eachother out in the public, I am assured that the people who are in charge of thier various countries only listen to thier own advisors. Weather it be Bush or Kerry, or Charaque, or Karzai

Ha.. I just took the Jew vs Nazi test and got every question correct... Such propaganda on that website, its disgusting. It does a good job of preteneding its not an Islamic website, which is always disturbing.

edit: seriously though, if your going to be quoting websites, please quote ones that are open about thier allegances, and are not pretending to be something they arn't.

That's one of my points. Many of these 'evil' countries were actually democracies that formed through their people's own will, until Western interests interferred. For example, the CIA organised what basically became the Taliban to start a war in Afghanastan so that the Soveits would be forced into 'their own Veitnam'. This is, a war they would lose horribly. Which they did.

This kind of information isn't discussed in public though when bringing up justifications for the actions of Western nations in relation to propping up new democratic governments.

I don't agree with it in the slightest. It was for oil and America's long term vision for how the Middle East can suit them.

Yes, its nice that one dictator fell, but it wasn't by the will of the country's people. I can't see how enforced democracy is not still dictatorship.

I also don't like it being called a war any more. The 'war' only lasted a few months while America crushed the inferior forces of Saddam. Now it is an occupation. And surprise surprise, the country is either edging closer to or already at civil war, so the remnants of the country will have even more happy times to look forward to.

Edit: Didn't America assassinate the previous leader of Iraq because he was going to unite the Muslims in defiance of the west? And helped Saddam's party (though not Saddam directly) to gain power in his place... because they were secular and friendly to the west? Maybe I'm garbling facts there, its been a while since I could stomach hearing about the real state of the world.

I'm not 100% on the legal terms, but I was under the impression that an "occupation" ment that you where there without the consent of the local government. Iraq has its own government, and they can ask the Coalition to leave the country whenver they like. (I have a funny suspicion however that they would like the coalition there for a longer period of time than the coalition wants to be there)

Also, I might as well say what my friends always say (I myself am still torn on the issue) but one thing they really like about the Iraq war is that now the arabs are fighting eachother like they were before WWI) Its like an old quote from before Germany was germany.. "woe to the world on the day that germany unifies"



Apparently you are unaware of the failed rebellion against saddam in 93 or the whole Kurdistan national movement.



That is both true and untrue.

While yes American agencies did those things, and yes some of the same people involved then are involved now (i.e. rumsfeld, bin-laden, cheney, saddam) The roles that the people played and what they represented has drastically changed. Russia back then, was not the russia of today, Bin-laden back then was a third rate general, the leaders of the taliban then were not the leaders of the taliban in 2001. Somethings are the same, and some things are very different.

I think the main reason why the convential wisdom doesn't know what to do about the Middle East is because nobody really cares enough to learn about the history in the level of detail thats really needed to understand it.

Wasn't the government installed by America? I thought they killed the actual leaders of the sovereign nation.

Why on earth is it good that a people are fighting amongst themselves?

Umm, no the Iraqi people have voted for the current government of Iraq. They have had 3 or 4 elections now, I've lost count.

Them fighting amongst themselves means less of my family members die.

I wish I could show video clips on the forums because if I could I would show the difference between the French Riots over a new piece of legisalation, and the American protests over a new piece of legislation. In France, cars are burning, in America children are sitting asleep in strollers as people walk in single file line along the freeways.

Of course the people have changed, but the history is there. Orientalist arguments ('oriental' being a Eurocentric word pretty much meaning 'others' or 'faceless') often pick and choose facts about the Middle East -- "they have such a bloody histroy", "Sadaam killed millions", "Muslims are terrorists", etc -- but never adress the whole picture, which includes the facts of the West's involvement in these things.

If we can't stand up and claim our responsibility in these issues, I can hardly respect our decisions to go in as a shining hero to fix the problems.

I agree that most people, myself included, don't know enough about the issues. Heck, even calling the area 'Middle East' is somewhat ignorant; the nations are very different and can hardly be lumped together in a peaceful fashion. The same principle applies to Asia.

As a side note, isn't it interesting how we call it the Middle East. Middle East of where? Western Europe. We are still working from the Colonial names of the British Empire.

I think anyone dying, regardless of race, is a Bad Thing.

Thats nice... I think mass murders and rapists dieing is a good thing, but thats just me. Either that or having them no longer be rapists and mass murders, but that would require some sort of brain washing.

I prefer incarceration. They are still people, just too dangerous to leave at large in society.

I also find it rather silly that you would equate 'Arab' to 'mass-murderer' or 'rapist'.

Hmm, wouldn't western europe call it "the east" or West Asia? I always thought Middle East was an American centric term. Since its the middle of the Eastern Continents. However, I think the term Middle east, really comes from the style of religion. Christainity is a "western religion" and Buddhism is an "eastern religion".. Judaism however is an Eastern Religion which is more common in the west (as noted by the fact that there is no traditional Jewish Theology or established Heaven and Hell), and Islam is a western religion (as noted by the fact that there is a traditional Islamic Theology and established Heaven and Hell) which is more common in the east, thus it getting the term "middle east"




Then apparently you havn't been keeping up with the Arab legal system. But ofcourse raping your sister and then killing her because she went on a date you don't approve of is just fine. Or the killing people because they convert to a new religion, or you know the whole suicide bomber thing. Exteremist in western society is translated as hero and martyr in thiers. But they have full rights to believe and any system of justice they like.

What do you mean? Edit: Crazily addressed by your edit. Glad prejudice is alive and kicking.

I should also ask... what exactly is an arab? I don't really understand whether it refers to a race, nationality or religion - dictionary.com says they are a semitic people, but what is that?

Arab legal system or not, that's a silly generalisation to make. I don't equate "American" to "euthanist" or "mass-murderer" because certain crimes there carry the death penalty.

I'm talking about the reports during the late 90s of women being raped and then murdered because they left thier houses, or were found to be talking to men not directly related to them.

Arab is an ethnicity. Arabs are made up of several different tribes. Arabs speak Arabic, Persians speak Farci.

Iraqi's are Arabs Iranians are Persians. Egyptians are Arabs, Jordanians are Arabs, Syrians are a mix of Arabs and Persians. Many Africans in North Africa are considered arabs because of the conquests of Mohhamed but they arn't arabs or persians they are Muslim Africans killing Christain Africans.

You can call me racist all you want, however I don't assume that the former arab living next door to me belives in one thing or another.

Though I can't say I was particuallry surprised when a black porsche prevented me and my friend from crossing a driveway into a shopping center by driving forwards and then backwards, almost running us over turned out to be an arab.

If you think the current history of conflict in the middle east is bad, you should see the battles that break out between the various sects of Arabs during and before the Ottoman empire.

Persians normally are fairly accepting of the people around them and when they conqured people they intigrated them. Arabs however tend to be more hostile and have the "be like me, or die" attitude. Very similar to the Christain wars between Prodistants, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons etc.

If you are curious, as I was about the various Arab groups in Iraq, you can look at the list here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Tribes_in_Iraq

That I'm sorry is ridiculous. I mean so an arab was blocking your path with a car. I've had black people chase me through the streets of DC in an attempt to rob me. I've also been shot at by black folk in the city for being somewhere where I "heh" really shouldn't have been at the time. (I use the word black because african american is too bizarre and most of my "african american" friends scream at me for not saying black so no offense to anyone) But back to my point. I lived in SE Washington DC for years (where all this has happened to me) and I have no racist views towards anyone of any race/religion. I mean maybe it is me growing up in an essential melding pot of ethnic cultures and people but.... you cannot blame a race or religion entirely on a few individuals. It is sheer ignorance to do so. Not all Muslims kill their wives or daughters for disobeying their fathers. Not all Arabs are out for total world domination. Not all Spaniards are members of ETA, not all Alemanians are Nazi's and not all Irish are members of the IRA... There are some people of all religions and races that are in general bad but don't blame a whole religion or race for the actions of a few.

Daganev, each time the word arab is brought into the conversation you automatically start attacking them. The site Penelope linked isn't more biased than your usual sources of information, and actually a big part on what's on it coincides with the UN own website information. Let's not turn this debate once again into a "how bad the arabs are and how mistreated Israel and the jews are" please.

And about the war, INVADING another nation against UN resolutions is illegal. It basically justifies many other countries in war with their neighbours who now can say "We're not invading, we're liberating, the big US did it too!". The fact is, the oil went to americans and allies. The population is still poor and rioting. The elections, well, there were also elections on Saddam time, and claiming that they're all ok when the turnout was a 58%, being so low as to a 2% on some areas. And still they're on an interim government until who knows when, probably until they've sold all their resources to their rescuers. American soldiers keep diying.

Regarding soldiers crimes, there were not so long ago cases of tortures, wich were investigated up to a certain point. And still there's Guantanamo wich isn't being investigated much just in case. Is by american legislation a soldier forced to follow that kind of orders as to torture another human being, when torture is illegal?