Why would a celestian stay a celestian when they finally come to the conclusion that demon lords are 'better'?

being uncertain does not equate to declaring the enemy is better.

There's a lot of reasons to stay with something you don't believe. It happens in the real world all the time. For example, many people try to play off doubts as transient/cold feet/etc, or assume that things will get better. They might also recoil in horror at a full understanding of what believing that truly entails, particularly considering the morality and virtues that Celest tries to ingrain in everyone, or simply be in denial about it. Marriage provides possibly the most evident and common example of this - "staying together for the kids."

What you described (Wow, I really like the Demon Lords -> goes to join the Nihilists) is really a two-dimensional prop and not a character with any depth.

Umm, when someone decides to stay together for the kids, they are making the value judgement that the kids are better than the spouse or any other potential spouse.

Your talking about having doubts and questions... I'm talking about making a judgement.

........

Then what was your point? Both my posts were all about doubts and questions, which was pretty clear since I kept talking about doubts/etc. I didn't try to suggest that some Celestines should go form a covert Demon Lord-worshipping cult. I was trying to suggest ways that Celestines (or Nihilists) could shade their actions in an interesting way, and take up a non-standard role that doesn't tow the party line, without being outguilded and such.

To be honest I have made several attempts at creating a Celestine Alt. The reason for not wishing to advance was that the general level of RP was IMHO quite low.
Four out of five supernals have no inclination towards over-cuddleness and yet as a novice you are often exposed to only that kind of treatment.
The potential in the Celestins is awsome, Methrenton's path could easily lead to the creation of mindless fanatics while Elohora is much more balanced. There are alot of different paths, choose one which does not revolve the loving of others.

Another issue I felt bad with was that when I tried to get into fighting, all I heard about was to get this and that skill, change a race to either Taurian or Loboshigaru and so on. Fighting and RP -can- co-exist. Yes I am certain that some races will have it easier than other but that does not mean that other races can't be reasonable fighters as well.

All in all, I love the abilities and concept. I don't like the ooc remarks which sometime take place and the general lack of RP. On the other hand, it is quite possible that I simply was not exposed to those people who do it well.

That's all well and good. But, there's a problem. The rest of the city views you as cuddly. It's not a guild problem, it's a city problem. And until people stop viewing Celestines as cuddly, we'll never hear the end of Raziela preachings... I mean come on.. a PALADIN is preaching to me about being nice...

Well, I am speaking as someone who saw the Celestines from within.
I just feel that the other Supernals don't come into play. Those who might consider Shakiniel or Methrenton, the ones I spoke to at least, spoke only of battle and no RP whatsoever- to the point, as I said, to level up to lv 75 as a human and then go Lobo or Taurian...
I don't think it's wrong.... but it definately collides with my RP ethics, and not having much to work with when it comes to creating a concept is rather hard.

And really, I doubt that those who speak of Celest have never tried to create an Alternate therein. It's not like RL when you judge as an outsider, most speak from first-hand experience.

I don't think that they are in an unmendable situation... but some work is needed I imagine.

I have been trying for a while to alleviate (SPelling error?) this problem. I wrote a book on Raziela's Teachings and have spent some time talking with Her, and a few Divines trying to set this straight, that the whole snuggly-for-you thing just does not work.

As it is said in the teachings, we are to attempt at a balance between the fivefold path of proper life, such that we love all, and use proper judgement in all things, finding that we must protect our homeland and our people and our Faith from that which seeks to bring Her/Him/It harm, insuch bringing the enemies of Faith to their kneees, whilst seeking balance in all decisions. (Raziela,Japhiel,Shakiniel,Methrenton,Elohora)

I am a firm believer people should not have cookie-cutter roleplay, I was happy when Thoros came along, to be the allmighty holier than though inquisitor. I was glad when Rauros came back, I iwsh Qaletaqa would come back... I even miss Amaru because every guild needs that one person to give people a reason to point at the guild and says "See they suck because they do not keep their own inline!".

I hope Simimi is not seen as "snuggly" but more as the way I intended her to be, in that- She sees all peoples of Celest as her Children, and loves them all equally. She is somewhat of a Matroness/Mother Teresa...preacher-lady...thing..person...ism...?

Rauros, just try a new RP in Celest and stick to it, if someone jumps on you about "RAziela says THIS" then have them come to me, and if she has indeed said this, we can work it out...but seriously...not all of the teachings are ment to be taken as at literal face value, I would hope.

Love-mimi

Really? See now, this is really a shame. It would seem to indicate to me that even if someone chooses to play such, they are forced to play so carefully, that no one else ever notices... which sort of defeats the purpose really.



Indeed. The problem is that many (most?) players choose to interpret any background, or divine pronouncement in the most absolute and fanatical way possible.

This generates a fear for any who choose to play a character that is actually capable of independent thought, that they may be ostracised or even outguilded for failing to meet the required level of fanatacism.


Oh, and Simimi, I've always prefered the compassion=strength arguement, but if any of the Celestians would like to get rid of Raziela, I'd gladly swap for Gorgulu. Any takers?

CHelp compassion

Its compassionate and good to kill the tainted.

Put that help file back in and your problems are solved

Let me come here to say that playing a character who can think independently is possible and highly rewarding. It's a bitch, yes, but a highly rewarding bitch. And depending on how vocal you are about it, it can be very easy. It's hard for me because everyone knows.

I could (But won't because I don't trust some people with IC/OOC separation) name about twenty people in Serenwilde, Celest and Magnagora who think independently and aren't fanatics.

See, I've always thought that is such a weak argument.
compassion=violence just won't work unless you have a controlled audience, or you think them fools.

You've admitted defeat before you've even started, you're approching it as if compassion is a flaw that you need to find a way around... you're never going to get a strong argument that way.

Now, if you take the approach that compassion is strength...

Meh, give Raziella to the Nihilists, we'll show you how to use her properly.
Now, a Nihilist character that kills in the name of Raziella... that would be interesting...

Oh... wait a minute...

There is no way you can argue that there is no compasinate killing.

How am I trying to get around compassion? Example I am a celestine who follows Lady Raziella and other supernals teachings, I look at the tainted people and see them as sick, suffering and maby crazy. You could think of them as like rabid pets, Theres no curing some dieseases and sometimes its better to be compasinate and kind to the person or animal and just put them down. So your being compasinate and putting the poor crazy and misguided tainted out of their misery.

Which is pretty much exactly what he just said.

I wouldn't call people that kill out of compassion fools. I for example would prefer euthanesia over having a very painfull terminal disease.

Well said, and isn't that exactly the opinion of Isune? I once heard Her say that the greater compassion you can show to someone who is tainted is death.

Exactly what I was trying to say anisu just you did it better No reason why You cant follow Lady Raz's teachings and be forced to be a pasificist.

Repeat it as much as you like.
Compassion = violence is a weak arguement.

Thats not to say you can't use it, or that it won't work for some people... but against anyone with a shred of independent thought you're on shaky ground.

Try to cloud the issue with euthanasia if you will, but I don't really think anyone will be convinced that is what we are really talking about here.

Drag up Isune... but that is just an example of the administration supporting a weak view.

Think people, think!
You can do better than: "Tainted are so hurt we must kill them out of compassion"

I urge you to read my dictionary quote again. Where does it say compassion is all snuggly? Do not invent meaning to existing words, Oxford dictionary clearly states it's to relieve suffering. Oddly enough, dead tends to relieve suffering.

Except that they then meet the Fates, which is more suffering instead of less (assuming they weren't affliction-locked).

Oops?