If it's not unfair that we have to have a system and such for getting involved in combat, why is it unfair to expect a little effort in running a shop?

A little effort is totally different to having to adapt to a different client and set up foolproof safety systems. I'm going to have to appeal to common sense on this one because I'm about to go to bed so I can't be bothered formulating arguments on why exactly shopkeeping and other such totally passive pursuits should require less automation than combat...but someone else is welcome to try.

Because a loss in combat is limited. A loss in shopkeeping can cost you 100's of dollars of investment.

I don't really care if moonbeam stays the way it is, though I think it would make sense if it only worked at night... I just don't think it is fair to expect that shopkeepers be -that- paranoid about being robbed. Most of the time its fine anyway, I'd just never thought of this application of greater pentagram.

Because theft is the worse thing you can ever do to anyone in game. And I personally really dont like theft.

If people were, the behaviour of the player base would change to accomodate I think. I never stole from stockrooms in Achaea, but I believe it wasn't terribly easy... and people were only caught when they were afk, dc-ed, or were just staggeringly silly about it. I had an Achaean alt who remains at near-permanent infamous for his nefarious kleptomania.. so I sort of see both sides of the argument.

Now.. what if Aiakon kidnapped your favourite goat 'Elsie' and put her in his stockroom? After a few days with an increasingly frustrated libido (), you'd want the opportunity to steal her back. Meanwhile, Aiakon is "looking after" her in his stockroom, and oh no! You can't moonbeam in because of your campaigning a week before... moonbeam no longer hits stockrooms!!

I know this argument doesn't make sense. To argue it more sensibly, moonbeaming to a stockroom is on a very different level to pooka-ing heartstop. It's taking a step which has its logical conclusion in the end of all pk. There HAS to be some nastyness in this game, it makes it interesting.

One of the things about IRE games I do love is that you don't lose all your items at death, though I wonder sometimes if that doesn't encourage the "player death isn't bad" paradigm in a bad way. Just a random thought, and I'm wandering off to find lunch now.

Has anyone else noticed that the forum thinks the last post was Aiakon, but Tsuki was really the last poster?

I did.

I think it's because I have a habit of posting before I've error checked. I edited and resubmitted AFTER Tsuki's post... perhaps that's why?

yeh i did xenthos.

And tsuki yes its possible to avoid being beamed to if you never stay in your stockroom for more than 10 seconds.

However its fair enough to suggest that a normal shopkeeper should reasonably expect to spent 1-2 minutes in a stockroom, repricing things and putting stuff up for sale, and to be so vulnerable is kinda silly.

What happens if someone joins the moondancers, learns up to moonbeam and then quits? they still have access to moonbeam don't they? They can then go theive to their hearts delight anywhere, and no-one can tell them otherwise.

Stop trying to argue the point everything is fine, it should be changed and it's not ok as it is. Sure you can live but when all your stuff gets taken you will certainly be upset.

Example voron.

I would justl ike to point out that Track and Unite and Seek don't work in stockrooms, and the reasoning behind it is "You can't do that to a stockroom"

you know what else? someone like me could get into the serenguard say (not me but someone who is as good, hang on there can only be one god but you get my drift) could be as devastating as me with just knighthood (like I am now since i don't use necromancy for ANYTHING except the odd time someone makes me lich on prime) and break into someone's stockrom, beat down the person in there.

I would be an able theif, as well as be able to function in somewhere like magnagora as a proper character and good at combat too.

I wish i had've now, all the non-feats from moon and a licence to steal........mmm

Actually yea now you mention it the pentagram moonbeam trick dosnt need two people. Fair enough serenguard wouldnt be as good as moondancers for stealing what with no pooka and all.

I remember talking to Rizzen about Track and Unite and Seek and finding that they work to objects, not requiring a person, that was why they were changed.


Ah yes, Voron. He's a fun example. Haven't heard anything about him in ages, though. Has he been thieving to his heart's delight everywhere and I just haven't heard?

As far as the "no-one can tell them otherwise" comment, does that refer to how if a Moondancer or Serenguard uses moonbeam in that fashion they're going to be asking for trouble from their guilds? If so, would it please you if the Beam ability was similar to a Totem spiritbonding?

Totem spiritbonding (example, Wolf):
mana cost to set up, can thereafter use the SCENT ability

Moon (Beam):
1 Moonhart Mother Tree power to set up, can thereafter use the MOONDANCE BEAM ability

Track seek and unite where never changed, you were never able to enter a stockroom.

But the message you get when you try is something like.. That item is in a stockrrom, you can't go there... or Your hound finds the object but its in a stockroom.

No special stockroom magic mentioned, don't know why Mooonbeam would need a special reason.

Seek and Unite were indeed changed, and it had to do with getting in to places. I know it could be used to enter a guildhall at first, and the stockroom idea was mixed up somewhere in there. It's been awhile since the skillset came out and I was involved in testing/discussing it at all.

odd, last time I had it I could still enter guildhalls, and I was never able to enter a stockroom, but I might have gotten the skill after the changes went in.

I'd have to look up the announce post.

Not a single person has sent the Moondancer envoy or the Serenguard envoy (to my knowledge) a suggestion that beam shouldn't work into stockrooms except for Shorlen.

It is worth noting, however, the Moondancer envoy did post on Envoys board once that beam shouldn't work into stockrooms if only to shut up people.

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One thing that interests me about "stealing" in IRE games is that it isn't "illegal" or "banned." This leads me to believe that there is some intent that some people will be robbed else it just wouldn't be possible.

If the idea is that "stealing" is so god awful, I think that should be the issue.

Stealing should be possible if your good at it, are able to stalk your pray and make a good heist, it should not be possible for any low level person to do with little to no effort.

Well, let's assume someone made a moondancer alt and learned up to beam while still a low level. What're the chances he/she will survive against a fully established character in his or her shop? The thief may grab a few items, the gold first of course, but it shouldn't take too long for the shopowner to incapacitate the thief in some way, even without defs.

I can see Narsrim's point about theft. Yrael had his share of fun with it (may still be having his share of fun...) and no one condemned him. And there are other ways to rob a shop. First example that comes to mind was Ethelon as a Dreamweaving Druid. He possessed... Jadryga(?) and took off with the loot though I'm not sure exactly how. Any dreamweaver could possibly do the same if conditions are right just like how moon users can rob shops if the conditions are right.