ENVOY REPORTS

by Ashteru

Back to Common Grounds.

Ashteru2006-04-27 05:23:51
Let's discuss the major nerf again. Surge. sad.gif
Daevos2006-04-27 05:28:15
I guess it's only the low int warriors that don't mind the surge change really.
Tervic2006-04-27 06:00:29
QUOTE(Daevos @ Apr 26 2006, 10:28 PM) 282865

I guess it's only the low int warriors that don't mind the surge change really.


And aren't they generally the ones who don't really need it?

Murphy2006-04-27 06:24:36
I was all for the surge nerf, i have 4.8k health which is more than enough to fight any warrior for me, and I get 2.8k mana so i don't run out of it using puer and whatever else.

I'm happy.
Unknown2006-04-27 07:25:38
QUOTE(Tervic @ Apr 27 2006, 02:00 AM) 282867

And aren't they generally the ones who don't really need it?

The Surge change was to help high-con low-int warriors get more mana so they can be tanker vs. guardians half-mana instant kills. The fact that high-int low-con warriors get less life is a side effect.


Sprinting:*Edited because I just tested something*

Why sprinting needs to be changed:
By far, the best place for sprinting in Lusternia is the mountains, where there are often long straight stretches of 7-10 rooms in a row, and only 5 stretches below 3 rooms. (We are assuming some helpful novice has slaughtered all the sheep in the serenwilde/glomdoring foothills for the time being, as it would hurt both tests equally.)

1.If you sprint counter clockwise though all the mountains starting 1 out, 1 west from the rockholm gate, it will take you 139 seconds to sprint back to where you started from. (There are 139 straight stretches and it takes 1 second of balance recovery after each)

2.If you walk counter clockwise through all the mountains starting 1 out, 1 west from the rockholm gate, it will take you 130 seconds to walk back to where you started from. (There are a total of 389 rooms in the mountains, including 1 road room near dairuchi, and you can move 3 rooms within 1 second time without getting a hasty message)

From this scenario we can see that sprinting is in fact detrimental for fast movement. This fact holds true, even in the best circumstance possible.


Note:Sprinting clockwise would take longer as the sprinting would then take you places you didn't want to be.
Unknown2006-04-27 08:53:44
Why sprinting needs to be changed(part two):
For this second test we will assume that some helpful novice has killed all of the cows on the roads as their presence would hurt both tests evenly.

1.If you sprint counter clockwise though all the highways starting at Ackleberry triple junction, it will take you 144 seconds to sprint back to where you started from. (There are 143 straight stretches and it takes 1 second of balance recovery after each, plus a bit of walking north of magnagora.)

2.If you walk counter clockwise through all the highways starting at Ackleberry triple junction, it will take you 86 seconds to walk back to where you started from. (There are a total of 257 rooms on the roads, including the paths through the valley/lands, and you can move 3 rooms within 1 second time without getting a hasty message.)

From this scenario we can see that even the limited usefulness sprinting has for fast movement drops off steeply, even in the second best circumstance.


Note:Sprinting clockwise would take longer as the sprinting would then take you places you didn't want to be(even sprinting in the direction I did messed me up once, north of magnagora, so I had to fudge it, and add 1 second onto this time, to allow for walking back onto the road.) It is also impossible to sprint through either city so my route heads through the Oleanvir valley and the Blasted lands.


One last comment:For people like the Hartstone, who have a skill which slightly increases the number of rooms they can move before getting the hasty message, sprinting, even for these two tests, is now a joke, as the difference in times for them would be even more extreme, in favor of walking.
Ashteru2006-04-27 09:27:30
Why surge needs to be changed back:
First, Dia tried to be objective and get a good skill nerfed, unfortunately he failed. He's a level 97something human titan with trans resilience and magic and probably a good fullplate, plus stags healingpowers and all. He might be good with that surge now, but let's think of a different scenario.
I am a level 86 human warrior with expert resilience and master magic with an average fullplate. I take about 1000 damage from one astral creature. I was able to tank about six turns, now I can tank five turns, additional to the pretty crappy bashing offence warriors have, that's bad. I was able to tank that really strong attack from manifestations with 6.3k, and barely got out with about 1k health or so. Now, I am down to 5.3k health, and that attack can probably instakill me. I won't start to talk about lower levels, they are even worse off. My normal warrior health is about 400 health higher than me as a Druid, and my surged about 1400, and I exchanged six hits to kill one astral thing for additional 1400 health and double that many combos to kill. Not to mention that now, Mages are by far the best archetype to bash with, forcefield and staff are a deadly nice combo. Nice enough to get me to consider to switch to being one, even though I love being a warrior.
More to come when I have more time.
Drago2006-04-27 09:45:09
I'm not fussed about surge, I only used it against 3+ goats anyway. I.. don't see why people wanted sprint changed at all, apart from "Well, we don't have it so nyah.gif"

This makes me sad though sad.gif -
QUOTE
(there was another makehay before this as well at 6k wounding)
4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 9p, 20464en elrxk- 19:29.33
You glance over Torak and see that his health is at 3174/3300.
You assess the bodily wounds as follows:
* Head has critical wounds.
* Chest has no wounds.
* Gut has no wounds.
* Left arm has no wounds.
* Right arm has no wounds.
* Left leg has no wounds.
* Right leg has no wounds.
4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 9p, 20464en lrxk- 19:29.33

4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 10p, 20464en lrxk- 19:29.34

4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 10p, 20464en lrxk- 19:29.35
You have recovered equilibrium.
4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 10p, 20474en elrxk- 19:29.36
Focusing on his head, you strike at Torak with a baleful rapier of darkened steel. You cleanly strike off his scalp, revealing the bloody skull underneath.
Focusing on his head, you strike at Torak with an elegant silver rapier. You strike into his neck, and blood fountains out in a thick spray.
Focusing on his head, you strike at Torak with a baleful rapier of darkened steel. You strike into his neck, and blood fountains out in a thick spray.
Focusing on his head, you strike at Torak with an elegant silver rapier. You strike into his neck, and blood fountains out in a thick spray.
4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 0p, 20463en exk- 19:29.36

You say, "Ok."
4534h, 2986m, 3439e, 0p, 20463en exk- 19:29.38
Right arm balance back!
Right arm balance back! 29:41.203
Left arm balance back!
Left arm balance back! 29:41.218
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 0p, 20473en elrxk- 19:29.41

You suddenly scoop up a gruesome scalp.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 0p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.44
Torak takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his head.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 0p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.44
You say, "Can't behead off makehay anymore."
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 0p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.44
Torak eats a sprig of chervil.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 1p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.47
Torak chants softly to himself, and his body momentarily becomes transparent, then solidifies and rebuilds itself.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 1p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.49
Torak takes a drink from a sapphire vial.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 1p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.53
You glance over Torak and see that his health is at 1828/3300.
You assess the bodily wounds as follows:
* Head has critical wounds.
* Chest has no wounds.
* Gut has no wounds.
* Left arm has no wounds.
* Right arm has no wounds.
* Left leg has no wounds.
* Right leg has no wounds.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 1p, 20475en lrxk- 19:29.55
You have recovered equilibrium.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 2p, 20475en elrxk- 19:29.58
Torak takes a drink from a sapphire vial.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 2p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.00
Torak releases the Healer tarot, which rises up and forms the image of Dionamus. The image turns into a golden sun that basks him in its radiant healing rays.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 2p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.01
You say, "You're at what.. 10k wounds?"
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 2p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.05
Accursed Torak, The Fist of Luciphage says, "That is retarded."
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 3p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.07
Torak nods his head emphatically.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 3p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.07
Accursed Torak, The Fist of Luciphage says, "10.5."
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 3p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.10
"Meh," you say nonchalantly.
4534h, 3001m, 3439e, 3p, 20475en elrxk- 19:30.10
With a heavy overhand stroke, you slam a baleful rapier of darkened steel down upon Torak. You hack through his neck like it's butter, and his head goes flying through the air.
Torak's severed head lands on the ground with a thud and rolls around like a top.
You have slain Torak.
QUOTE(Flexed Loboshigaru vs diminished mugwump)
4315h, 3001m, 3439e, 10p, 20475en elrxk- 19:43.07
You slam your forehead into the skull of Telrath, who reels backwards and is stunned by the blow.
Telrath is knocked off his feet by the force of the blow.
4315h, 3001m, 3439e, 10p, 20463en elrk- 19:43.08
Telrath d'Murani, Bloodstone Mage says, "All but two, not bad."
4315h, 3001m, 3439e, 10p, 20463en elrk- 19:43.08
Telrath stands up and stretches his arms out wide.
4315h, 3001m, 3439e, 10p, 20473en elrk- 19:43.10
You have recovered balance on all limbs.
4315h, 3001m, 3439e, 10p, 20473en elrxk- 19:43.11
1 second stun seems kinda.. useless. If he had a trigger for it he'd have stood 3 seconds before I got balance back.
Rhoan2006-04-27 09:50:01
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 27 2006, 03:27 AM) 282888

Why surge needs to be changed back:
First, Dia tried to be objective and get a good skill nerfed, unfortunately he failed. He's a level 97something human titan with trans resilience and magic and probably a good fullplate, plus stags healingpowers and all. He might be good with that surge now, but let's think of a different scenario.
I am a level 86 human warrior with expert resilience and master magic with an average fullplate. I take about 1000 damage from one astral creature. I was able to tank about six turns, now I can tank five turns, additional to the pretty crappy bashing offence warriors have, that's bad. I was able to tank that really strong attack from manifestations with 6.3k, and barely got out with about 1k health or so. Now, I am down to 5.3k health, and that attack can probably instakill me. I won't start to talk about lower levels, they are even worse off. My normal warrior health is about 400 health higher than me as a Druid, and my surged about 1400, and I exchanged six hits to kill one astral thing for additional 1400 health and double that many combos to kill. Not to mention that now, Mages are by far the best archetype to bash with, forcefield and staff are a deadly nice combo. Nice enough to get me to consider to switch to being one, even though I love being a warrior.
More to come when I have more time.



I was able to tank about six turns, now I can tank five turns,
You tank 1 less turn, I am guessing you mean hits, that is not a drastic loss. If you really meant Urns and not turns though. 2/3rds of the game cannot tank 2- 3 urns.

My normal warrior health is about 400 health higher than me as a Druid, and my surged about 1400
Is this your current surged health? 1400 health is nothing to sniffle over. Not to mention you still have 66% of your mana available to you which you did not have before.

Surge is now far more viable in many circumstances it wasn't before. You are no longer capable of being forced to surge and insta-toaded/absolved. You can surge in times you normally wouldn't have surged before, against Guardians, in a demense. (Note I am not saying you should or will, just that you can with far better chances than before)

As for Astral, there are a lot of people who cannot surge, or never could surge who seem to survive just fine up there. A 33% surge still puts you way ahead of those people.
Unknown2006-04-27 09:51:34
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 27 2006, 05:27 AM) 282888

Why surge needs to be changed back:
Now, I am down to 5.3k health, and that attack can probably instakill me.


I have around 4k health if I have a true favour, life blessing and yellow up, I am a typical mid to high lvl non-warrior. I don't think any other non-warriors are feeling bad for the warriors right now, they still have the most life, and the most protection Vs. common mob damage.
Torak2006-04-27 09:55:53
I think the haymaker thing was an oversight, or they plan to change it with the other knight changes. I am sure they will look into it though, no reason to get worried. Also, I can see why sprint was changed and support it, it let you by alot of things, and was amazing for movement. Don't see why it should be changed back really, if you don't want the 1 second draw back I think you should propose something else like getting winded after afew sprints or something.
Ashteru2006-04-27 10:14:42
I am talking about turns, and after five turns I have to run to heal up again, the additional mana is COMPLETELY useless, any warrior that surges against a guardian or wiccan is a moron and deserves to die, and I'd love to see how surge is forced in the mid of combat when I am constantly at 0 power from using crushes. I can't tank a friggin linked astral creature, that pisses me simply off. I have about the same mob protection as with greatrobes, but less offense. And I meant 1400 more than my druid when I am surged. I get about 1k health more for 8 power and constant manadrain, weeh.
The problem with surge were the buffs, which are looked into, anyway.
How many moonbursts do you need per astral creature, Wesmin?
I need about 12 combos of my hammers to kill one.
Narsrim2006-04-27 10:24:27
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 27 2006, 06:14 AM) 282898

I am talking about turns, and after five turns I have to run to heal up again, the additional mana is COMPLETELY useless, any warrior that surges against a guardian or wiccan is a moron and deserves to die, and I'd love to see how surge is forced in the mid of combat when I am constantly at 0 power from using crushes. I can't tank a friggin linked astral creature, that pisses me simply off. I have about the same mob protection as with greatrobes, but less offense. And I meant 1400 more than my druid when I am surged. I get about 1k health more for 8 power and constant manadrain, weeh.
The problem with surge were the buffs, which are looked into, anyway.
How many moonbursts do you need per astral creature, Wesmin?
I need about 12 combos of my hammers to kill one.


So... more or less, you still have more health than anyone else your level, but you should have more because Astral is tougher now?
ferlas2006-04-27 10:29:41
I think what he is saying is he is now only slightly tankier than wiccans but he is also is 1/2 slower than them. Warrior tankyness was what made them good bashers now it's been reduced.
Rakor2006-04-27 10:29:58
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 27 2006, 06:14 AM) 282898
any warrior that surges against a guardian or wiccan is a moron and deserves to die


I don't understand the 'warriors can now surge against Guardians' argument either. No one is going to surge against a class with a mana insta-kill. You would want as much mana as possible when fighting them, wouldn't you? The only way I can see that making sense is if you get jumped, and even then it won't make that much of a difference.

Edit: It would be nice if the mana drain was removed, as that seems to have been part of the suggestion to begin with, but like Daevos I'm more concerned about what's to come. This change certainly didn't make surge better (for me, at least) but I can live with it.
Murphy2006-04-27 10:50:12
Try living with 4.8k health as an aslaran warrior!! It's not excatly all beer and skittles, especially with a sip penalty.

I personally like the change to surge because it means i don't have to worry so much about relaxing it and taking up a valuable EQ time if i decide mid rampage that i want to target narsrim or thoros.

I much prefer the health types in achaea, where a lot of attacks are much more % based, and dragons don't get more than 6.5-7k without arties.

Less health for all = better strategies IMO.
Yrael2006-04-27 10:59:32
4.8k health? How DO you do it? You poor DARLING! Mummy wants to give you a big sloppy kiss and a hug, and a smack and reincarnate mugwump, princess.
Ashteru2006-04-27 12:07:52
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Apr 27 2006, 10:24 AM) 282899

So... more or less, you still have more health than anyone else your level, but you should have more because Astral is tougher now?

What Ferlas said. Do you missinterpret posts on purpouse?
Oh yeah, and I am not only slightly tankier than wiccans, for example. Narsrim beats my surged health by 800 when he is what he considers fully deffed.
Icarus2006-04-27 12:30:07
With 3000 to 4000 mana, you will surge with 500 to 700 less health than before. At lower levels it's even less significant. That's like half a sip of a Shadowlord. dry.gif

On an unrelated note, does Knockdown stun time depend on strength or target size? Or is it a flat one second?

Ashteru2006-04-27 12:33:57
It's 800 for me, and that's about the lower cap of one of my normal sips. As I said, guys with trans resilience and some nice fullplate or whatever might not notice that much, but I bet that for example Rakor notices, to a lower extent Xenthos as well. I bet ANYONE who mainly relied on surge for tanking will notice.