They stunk before, all that rolling around in swamps and stuff.

I say give 'em +2 Con. Rolling around in swamps must have had some effect.

You're overestimating the base effect of stancing. At 14 dex, trans combat, and stance legs, Xenthos still hits about 45% of the time. I haven't done real extensive tests on it, but I didn't need tests to see the difference in stancing once I went from imperial merian to shadowcaster.

Is that affected by his dex too (which is about as high as it can get)?

Not sure. But do keep in mind that the last time we did this was ages ago (long before Vernal).

I don't know about PvP...but PvE:

As a level 79 human, took four plays to kill a mountaineous rockeater (before it took three.)
Same as a mugwump.

Faeling shadowsinger takes three plays to kill a mountaineous rockeater (same as before the change.)

Basically the change is a nerf?

This is with a bonded instrument. (I noticed it before announced, thus rant on weaker playing >>)

It should be a heck of a lot easier to get +cha than +int... throne, beauty blessing, etc.

Beauty blessing is negated by knowledge blessing, and what average player can afford a manse, and a throne to put it in? Bardic presence, sure, that's a given and if the player has highmagic... However, druids cudgeling, warriors with decent weaponry, and so on will do at least 25% better against mobs then the average bard (and the shadowdancer faeling had 16 int, 20 char...stayed at played BEFORE the change.)) Bards aren't terribly popular, I don't really see a need to make them even less so.

16 int, 20 char would average out to 18, yes? You really think that +2 int would actually move the number of attacks from three... to two? Unlikely. You have to actually look at higher-hitpoint mobs for an actual test.

PS: I don't trust your random "25% better" number. You're also completely leaving out the 25% speed bonus for having a bonded instrument. And, yes, you have to look at all the potential +cha things that are available to everyone, compared to the +int things. +Cha is much more frequent.

Not everyone can afford to be tri-trans, most bards certainly can't. Unbonded instruments will be a minimum of 100 hours of hell. You would seriously do more damage from punching and kicking likely, then an unbonded instrument.

And my point was: using the same +char bonus you talked about, my human and mugwump still needed four hits to take out a mountain rockeater. Not the ones in the sea or in the UV, but your standard mountain rockeater. When I was a Loboshigaru druid, cudgeling took it out in 3, and as a grook nihilist, it took three. I attack at roughly the same speed as Dinoniel. A tad bit faster as a mugwump.

This is WORSE then before the change. Thus my, change = nerf take on the subject.

I don't care for myself really, I can just changeling elfen or faeling, and I'll be able to hit at three again. Just a bunch of other bards got fubarded.

4 attacks at 3s each == 3 attacks at 4 seconds each. And, once again, you're testing on mobs with very low health which doesn't prove a thing. Besides, why do you need to be tri-trans to buy a throne? Or various other lower-ranked skills that give +cha.

this is not relevant.. the skill should be compared to its previous state.. if it takes 3 minorsecond before, and now it takes 4 minorseconds.. then it is a nerf..

or
before: it would be 3 attacks at 3s each > 3 attacks at 4sec each


wish lowmagic has it.. i switched to lowmagic because mugwumps are so squishy i figured i needed yellow. but now, it turns out the +cha or highmagich might be needed..almost like picking your poison:(

Except it doesn't take more attacks for a Faeling, so... once again, you have to actually do it on a high-health mob, before and after, with different races to actually get an appropriate result.

And it is 100% relevant when Kharaen is comparing it to slower skills and saying it's now worse. Her (very poor) testing doesn't demonstrate it as being worse, it demonstrates it as being equal.

Also, I'm not sure how you can say bards are less able to be tri-trans or manse owners than everyone else. I personally don't own a throne, but I know if I cared enough to get one, I could have it in a week. I couldn't bash up a manse fulcrux in a week, but it's a very attainable goal, and a quick glance at PORTAL SEARCH at the Aetherplex will show you just how common manse ownership is, especially when you consider how many manses aren't listed.

Don't most cities and communes have communal manses/aetherships? You could see if they'll let you put a throne in one of them.

Deepnight or Dreymos will get you rooms cheaper than a fulcrux, or even cheaper than a room added to your own manse.

Kharaen I am sure has a throne, she has a shop and a manse so probably wise to assume she has a throne. If Nezha doesn't that would be different, but unlikely too.

Hell I have a throne and I never use it. But I still have it... sit on a77 baby!

Are people really complaining about bard bashing/damage? With all the int and cha buffs out there...bards should be dancing jigs. Hell, you can get +2 int and +2 cha just from blessings. Throne, bardic presence, netzach....eesh. Get some perspective, seriously. Bard bashing is still very nice.

I sense a lot of Bard hatred

The INT/CHA change to bardic MinorSecond damage actually seems to have made our damage output a bit, and a bit not some crazy amount, better because of the variety of charisma buffs more readily available than intelligence buffs. Intelligence, as far as I know, is only available through racial choice, HeroFetes, and Knowledge karma/domoth, whereas charisma is available with the things already mentioned before...racial choice, HeroFetes, Beauty karma/domoth, throne, BardicPresence, Netzach, and so on. Since MinorSecond takes damage output (I think) based on a combination of both INT and CHA as opposed to INT alone, raising just one side (CHA) increases the effectiveness of MinorSecond alone.

But, that's just what I think. Could try poking your friendly Admin for confirmation if you don't trust my odd logic.

The int/cha change was nothing but an upgrade for bards, if anything.


Unless you were illithoid. :rofl: