Oh, I didn't know Lich rezz came with those complications. Usually that doesn't matter though (I think) in the situations I encounter it, which is up against Thoros/Shikha/Vathael/DemiNecroPersonXYZ

... maybe you should go check Xiel's active damage again, then, because it's already very high. Add on 1.2k passive to that, and it is indeed doing so by a significant margin. (And an extra 400 damage passive is *nothing* to sneer at...)

Actually ever since glamours aff potential was reduced, I don't think bards afflict any faster than other classes now. I personally think they're pretty even with others now.

You also need to remember that this 1.2k comes every 10 seconds, is negated completely by earwort, and requires 10 spirits to be as damaging.

I agreed that the damage was way too much in the beginning and I was even pretty vocal about it, but now it's getting a bit funny.

It's not necessarily faster, it's just that a large amount of it is passive (once set up). It is power intensive, but it allows a lot more flexibility than a more active affliction-rate (choosing to supplement the passives with more afflictions, or with damage, or what-have-you). And Bard base damage is pretty strong already, especially with the Maestro instrument making it faster.

Hey you know, that sounds familiar, you could even say it falls under a couple of classes' demesnes. People can keep up with demesnes (usually) so I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

Bard base damage being high will always be an issue regardless of what kind of bard you are.

Really? As far as I know, staves don't get a 25% speed boost when they bond with the owner. Further, the affliction-menses (Druids) don't do much damage. The damage-mesne (Geomancer) doesn't do a whole lot of passive afflicting. The movement-mesne (Aqua) is... uh... stunny/pushy/pully with a few afflictions.

So, yes, bard base damage is high (you agree). This is making it even higher, unless you use earwort: But whoops! If you use earwort, you're getting stun-spammed. So you're either getting very constantly stunned/damaged/afflicted, or damaged/afflicted/damaged/afflicted. Unless you want to revive the removal of the stun on blanknote (which is still pretty unnecessary) in order to remove a bit of the downside to eating earwort as a way to balance the SS upgrade...

Which will muck up the other bards.

I think we're going to have to disagree on the affliction thing. I'm still pretty sure that if you can cure demesnes/spec/phantoms, you're going to be fine curing rainbowpattern/maelstrom/songs.

Phantoms doesn't come with the affliction-mesnes. Further, I think you're completely overlooking the point that there's a greater combination / versatility in terms of the passives of a Spiritsinger versus the demesnes. A faster, high damage base attack, a frequent stun if they try to block your passive song afflictions *and* damage, passive song afflictions/damage if they don't accept the stun, as well as the glamour passives on top of that. It does look pretty darn stacked in their favour, especially since during the stun (plus some time after that, due to earache) you're open to the song afflictions and damage anyways.

It's not the afflictions *alone*. It's how well they mesh together with the rest of the arsenal.

The only important difference I'm seeing is the higher damage output, heh. Your fixation on stun is once again noted, though. Anyway, moving on.

That... would indeed be my point, yes. Higher damage output for a class that already has high base damage output, as well as a decent affliction rate. And no reasonable method of stopping it (consider that a large number of people at this point don't even eat earwort unless pfifth / insta kill comes along). This is, in large part, due to the stun. I'm unsure why people basing combat strategy around avoiding the stun makes it "my fixation," but as you yourself have talked about removing the blanknote stun during our envoy discussions on the matter when it first came up... I find it somewhat disingenuous to try and pin it on me.

Wait, now it's decent affliction rate? All I've argued about is that bards aren't the affliction monsters they used to be. I'm not sure what your point is anymore, if it really is the damage thing, I guess I'm glad we have that sorted out?

I personally think that stun is pretty annoying, but it's nowhere near as bad now that the normalization is in. It's pretty impossible to 'avoid' stun just because it seems to be everywhere in Lusternia (along with blackout). My wanting to remove the stun on blanknote came before the normalization as well, mind you.

But damn you, I said moving on.

Geo demesnes hurt, there is not question there. Here is the problem, you can't chase someone with a demesne. On top of that, you can't insta summon someone with a demesne. Demesnes can be broken and avoided(sometimes). Geomancers can't touch the active damage a bard puts out. Bards hit both faster and harder.

Wilderrane = everywhere
Demesnes = not everywhere

Have you all forgotten unnerfed CrusaderCanto so quickly?

It's tragic, yes. Even the very minimum (i.e. forest, meld, regrowth) uses 9 power and takes about 10ish seconds. You'll run out of power before you even can hinder someone enough to finally pin them down.

Okay. Sojiro, I'm not saying the afflictions themselves are the issue (they're not!). I'm saying that, in combination with everything that's available to the Bard archetype: Passive afflictions, high & fast base damage, the ability to stun at the same time protection is removed, and so on... adding in more passive damage without an effective method of stopping it (especially on the scale seen with Xiel) is quite nasty. It's not *solely* the damage, or *solely* the afflictions, it's the combination of everything available that meshes together into a very good and versatile (though power-hungry) offense. This extra passive damage smoothly slides into their already-existing offense without really detracting or slowing it down in any way, and, in Xiel/Asmodea's case, it's a very significant boost.

Wrong. Wildarrane DOESN'T go everywhere. Whenever they move, they lose a spirit, and they only come back every 10 seconds. And the passive damage is entirely spirit-dependant. So you can't realistically chase someone with wildarrane. Conversely, you CAN chase someone in a demesne, depending on how deep into it you were fighting.

EDIT: And Spiritsingers can't instasummon you if you're deaf, which you will be if you're running from them.

So whens upgrades to make tarot better for bards than glamours?

Or are we just giving ecology to the cities? I know we wouldnt to upgrade half a set of bards and leave the other (or you can try to argue that tarot bards are awesome as is, which isnt as likely).

So stop arguing, ye Wildaranne is crazy, the passive damage + affs is better than a demesne and cant be broken. Now lets get tarot all nice and useful.. hmm.. dmp, more dodging, higher aff rate, room hits, and some passive stuff from familiars.

This thread has been Malarialized

Look, the obvious solution to the problem is to nerf Xiel.

Do the spirits come back passively? Just curious.

No matter the answer, you can't honestly compare demesnes to wilderrane and expect to be taken seriously. Bards are about 100 times more mobile than mages. Period. They also have perfectfifth, transfix, and hypnotic pattern to keep you in place. Geos have paralysis and rubble.

It's so much better than rockslide.

1 spirit every 10s passively.