Esano2011-06-24 21:17:04
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Jun 25 2011, 05:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know what's a bummer? The earlier envoy reports (Report 1 and so on) actually gave understandable reasons whenever they said no.
QUOTE
Report #1 Skillset: Skill: Envoys
Guild: (None) Status: Approved Jul 2008
Problem: Envoys are forgetting to comment on things.
Solution #1: Comment on reports.
Solution #2: Comment on the wiki.
Solution #3: Comment on the envoy channel.
Furies' Decision:
Do solutions 1, 2, and 3.
Guild: (None) Status: Approved Jul 2008
Problem: Envoys are forgetting to comment on things.
Solution #1: Comment on reports.
Solution #2: Comment on the wiki.
Solution #3: Comment on the envoy channel.
Furies' Decision:
Do solutions 1, 2, and 3.
Vadi2011-06-24 21:28:45
Maybe it's just punishment (for forgetting to comment):
QUOTE
Report #614 Skillset: Shadowbeat Skill: Shadowrave
Guild: Harbingers Status: Rejected May 2011
Problem: Of Shadowbeat's low-stanza abilities, 3 are only handy in certain situations -
outside of these situations there's nothing universally useful to replace them with.
Solution #1: Move ShadowRave down from Mid to Low.
Solution #2: Add to ShadowLight DMP for Magic/Poison/Asphyxiation
Solution #3: Add to NightFade a tic to heal a small amount of health and mana.
Player Comments:
---:
I've rewritten this report taking into account the comments made previously by Asmodea and
Tandrin, and after consulting again with the guild. As I noted in a previous report,
Shadowbeat lacks either the healing or DMP that is present in the other bard specs. If
it's intended that the Harbingers' skill be more offensive than defensive overall -
solution 1, if the issue with the previous rejection was overreaching or indefinite -
solutions 2 or 3.
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Guild: Harbingers Status: Rejected May 2011
Problem: Of Shadowbeat's low-stanza abilities, 3 are only handy in certain situations -
outside of these situations there's nothing universally useful to replace them with.
Solution #1: Move ShadowRave down from Mid to Low.
Solution #2: Add to ShadowLight DMP for Magic/Poison/Asphyxiation
Solution #3: Add to NightFade a tic to heal a small amount of health and mana.
Player Comments:
---:
I've rewritten this report taking into account the comments made previously by Asmodea and
Tandrin, and after consulting again with the guild. As I noted in a previous report,
Shadowbeat lacks either the healing or DMP that is present in the other bard specs. If
it's intended that the Harbingers' skill be more offensive than defensive overall -
solution 1, if the issue with the previous rejection was overreaching or indefinite -
solutions 2 or 3.
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Talan2011-06-24 21:38:43
QUOTE (Vadi @ Jun 24 2011, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe it's just punishment (for forgetting to comment):
I'm not sure what you're saying... do you mean that I'm being punished because you (and a dozen others) didn't comment on that report? The issue of the administration not giving feedback isn't new this month or unique to my reports...
Vadi2011-06-24 21:56:01
I meant that we all are!
Eventru2011-06-24 22:12:47
Not being the one to speak to any given circumstance, sometimes 'just don't think it's necessary' is all the argument one can offer.
I believe Sior's said in the past that you're welcome to ask him for clarification.
I believe Sior's said in the past that you're welcome to ask him for clarification.
Talan2011-06-24 22:14:55
QUOTE (Eventru @ Jun 24 2011, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I believe Sior's said in the past that you're welcome to ask him for clarification.
Right, but, he doesn't answer.
And I'm sorry if that's rude, but it's true.
Enyalida2011-06-24 22:16:06
It leads to a lot of misinformation and grudges being developed by players and envoys, that could be mitigated even by simple variety in message. Something like "this dosn't seem necessary to balance" or "this is not feasible to code" .
EDIT: Better: "We don't see this as a problem" versus "We don't like any of the solutions, try again"
EDIT: Better: "We don't see this as a problem" versus "We don't like any of the solutions, try again"
Everiine2011-06-24 22:20:10
QUOTE (Eventru @ Jun 24 2011, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not being the one to speak to any given circumstance, sometimes 'just don't think it's necessary' is all the argument one can offer.
I believe Sior's said in the past that you're welcome to ask him for clarification.
I believe Sior's said in the past that you're welcome to ask him for clarification.
To that I'd answer, if 'just dont think it's necessary' is all the argument one can offer against an envoy suggestion, that person is not being objective. Objective arguments have reasons and support. "We do not find this to be necessary" immediately says to me, "You've made a good argument, and there's no real reason why we shouldn't implement it, we just don't want to."
Enyalida2011-06-24 22:22:05
QUOTE (Talan @ Jun 24 2011, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Right, but, he doesn't answer.
This. Also, you can't really know when he's on to have a conversation, which I find to be almost 100% better then using messages. I understand that he's probably busy and can't do that for absolutely everything, but it would be nice.
Everiine2011-06-24 23:19:46
The easiest solution is to provide a reason, even one, when things are rejected. There has to be one, and providing it at the time of rejection saves everyone, both players and admin, a lot of hassle.
Arel2011-06-24 23:23:27
QUOTE (Talan @ Jun 24 2011, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wish that they still did this - or gave any feedback whatsoever. It is extremely difficult trying to solve a problem, coming up with a solution set, and receiving nothing in response - you are left without knowing if they acknowledge the issue and didn't like your suggestions, or even if they clearly understood the problem. There were similar complaints recently, with a promise to explain in further detail, and the messages requesting that feedback were never answered.
It's really great when things are just approved, but if they're not, and if they pertain to problems we envoys don't believe have gone away we NEED your feedback so we can improve our suggestions. I can understand the desire to not want to engage with people who will whine about rejections and argue back, but it's kind of unreasonable to never explain why decisions came down the way they did. Admin - please help make the conversation more two-sided.
It's really great when things are just approved, but if they're not, and if they pertain to problems we envoys don't believe have gone away we NEED your feedback so we can improve our suggestions. I can understand the desire to not want to engage with people who will whine about rejections and argue back, but it's kind of unreasonable to never explain why decisions came down the way they did. Admin - please help make the conversation more two-sided.
I would assume that it would also help out the Envoys in creating new reports since previous rejections will give some general indication of what is and isn't acceptable for solutions.
Vadi2011-06-24 23:40:02
It would. My report 616 is a gamble because I'm not sure why was 338 rejected (same standard reason. So it could be either 'didn't like solutions' or 'they shouldn't be able to do that', I gambled on the former)
Morbo2011-06-25 09:53:51
As a new envoy, I would find improving the responses to be extremely useful in writing new reports. I look back at what Prav did and it's just small lines about this wasn't accepted and I have no clue what he was doing wrong or if the idea was just ridiculous or if it wasn't codable. It forces me to be extremely conservative in my report ideas so that I can get my own feel for the discussions happening around the reports and then seeing the rejected or accepted decisions instead of approaching some things about my class that really need to be looked at and adjusted.
Estarra2011-06-25 17:37:07
I'll ask Sior to try to elaborate a little bit more where possible. The admin do discuss and comment internally on reports but in many cases those comments cannot be passed on to players. Sometimes, however, we simply do not like a suggestion or do not think an update on a particular skill is appropriate or necessary. As Eventru said, there isn't much more to elaborate on in this case.
Regarding Report 599 (druid immunity to weather wind knock down), that was specifically tabled because of ongoing review of weather.
Regarding Report 599 (druid immunity to weather wind knock down), that was specifically tabled because of ongoing review of weather.
Enyalida2011-06-25 18:09:41
Yeah, I got the feeling that sometimes specifics aren't really something you could hand out, for various reasons. Even if there isn't an actually specific reason in the decision, more categorization would help envoys, I think. "Will consider pending upcoming updates" or something. Thanks though (about 599).
Unknown2011-06-25 19:53:57
Sometimes, in some cases, it seems a polite way to say, stop asking for bazooka arms and laser eyes when you already have rocket boots and chainsaw... I'm out of stuff.
Unknown2011-06-27 03:49:14
I'm in agreement with Enyalida: Knowing if something is rejected because it the report is a nonproblem vs. not liking any of the solutions suggested vs. the issue being intractable to code is very very useful. If it's case 2, then I know to shelf the report until I have better ideas, whereas cases 1 and 3 mean that I shouldn't resubmit it unless things change significantly.
Lilia2011-06-29 02:00:04
I've been keeping an eye on certain Envoy reports, and I have questions and comments about what some of the envoys have been saying. What's the best way to do this? Is it acceptable to post something here? Or should I talk to my guild's envoy, the envoy who made the report, or the envoy who made the comment?
Enyalida2011-06-29 02:19:18
Usually the best place to start is your envoy.
Unknown2011-06-30 16:04:46
I love it when people ask me about envoy stuff. So does your envoy. Talk to them, or talk to whoever made the report/comment that interested you.
