Huh? As far as I know, crits are straight multipliers. You're saying Ixion can hit a bull 32 times and not have it die?

Yes, sometimes...because knights also have different strengths of attacks (like cut with a light wound and opening up deep lacerations), and it would be 16 combos not 32 since he's a blademaster, and they use fast weapons for bashing so the damage is pitiful

Yea I can hit something that many times and not have it die. I mean it took Karnagan and I 5 minutes straight hitting a garshade a little while back since they leech life from you and we were getting random little crits yet still nothing that would come close to keeping that evil shade down.

If you get a crit, though, it's all at once, before they can leech. If crits work the same for warriors here as they do for everyone else in every IRE game, it should be the same as hitting the creature that many extra times. I've heard that damage stat has nearly nothing to do with bashing, and only helps against players. So either crits work differently for warriors, or it does affect bashing. I mean, I get an obliterating moonburst and a gorgog drops in one hit, and I'm pretty sure I could one-shot an astral mob with a world-shattering. Even if only one swing crits for him, a WSC for Ixion is still the equivalent of 16 full combos. That should be a LOT of damage, and plenty to kill things.

damage stat affects bashing, it just doesn't affect it as much as speed and strength do.

I have seen Ixion hit something with an anihlating hit, and it not die.

That's just silly then.

About the Guardian change... I think that it has both merits and flaws. I feel that for Nihilists, it is a welcome change. Our instant kills are a deal harder to pull off and killing with damage doesn't work against anyone who is decent-unless they are very unlucky.

Celestines are a different issue because the powers they can invest and their instant-killers are easier to pull off. I think the reason why it was left unnoticed or undealt with so far is because there weren't -that- many great Celestine fighters existing on the same time. Yes, you have Amaru...who was once very active... but he's only one person... even in his prime. Thoros was decent, but also dissappeared. No, I don't really care if you say he sucked, he gave me trouble but then again- I am far from being top-tier. Now Shamarah is alone on that front with Talkan who is... okayish. So basicly, due to low numbers, they were largly disregarded... but their skills are, simply put, deadlier and their kills easier to pull.

So I think that tacticaly-wise, this change adds a flavour. But most would agree that it for Nihilists, it's okay but for Celestines, its absured. So I think that the root of the problem lies within the difference between the two Guardians. Cause I don't think that order-investing should apply to just demons or angels, they should work the same.

I'm far from being an expert, just my opinion.

I don't buy into the claim that a bull survived a world shattering critical. When Diamante was a BM, he could out bash me as a Mugwump easily with his rapiers because of the high criticals. Likewise, Ekard bashed ridiculously faster than me when we bashed together as well.

Then don't buy it, but your logic is ridiculous.

X is faster than Y. Therefore, Z can't survive a hit from X... WHA!?

I believe he's simply stating that, whatever the reason, warriors are better bashers at high levels. He attributes this to the chance of criticals being doubled, and thus, I'm assuming, to the fact that this allows you to bash more efficiently, with less overkill and wasted damage.

I disagree as I can think of no concrete examples to match the bulk of your argument. What afflictions can Celestines invest (or use with a symbol) that are far more effective than Nihilists? At the very least, Nihilists can use a Luciphage symbol to dominate, thus giving them an active forcing ability with no power cost (an extremely powerful ability). Absolve has less restrictions than Wrack, but has a power cost upon failure whereas Wrack does not. Given passive hindering from shackles, this makes Wrack slighty harder to use, but less risky overall.

Vapoures (blackout) for one, is a huge pain. All Celestines need to do is stick inquisition on you and you're pretty much toast. Celestines/Nihilists are both excellent hinderers, enough to keep you posted and rooted. Thing is, unlike Celestines, Nihilists don't have that one move that renders their target completely helpless. As I said, I am not a very good fighter, merely a loud one

That's kinda the point of inquisition. However, inquisition can be avoided fairly easily by simply running.

Any plans to look into Wiccans? We can kill, but Wicca is still rather weak. And it'd be great to get something in place of wisp.

Narsrim is a wiccan not a mage, I'm not sure what warriors being faster than wiccans is suppose to tell us about Bulls surviving critical hits.



Isn't simply running away a bit harder now with the changes to Tumble?

Or does that only apply to wiccans and not guardians?

That message is actually showing the health of the target, not the damage being done. Light wound is the starting health, and deep lacerations shows shortly before you kill them. There is a message in between too, although I forget what it is.

messy gash

Wiccans are a fine class, and no, the guardian change was not needed for either guardians. Nihilists are fine, I wracked basically all the top tier(There is a few exceptions, mainly Daevos and Geb) but its more how much practice and skill you have with the ability. With this change I can see so many possibilities of easy easy kills its unreal. Would really like to know who envoyed it..

I like the sprinting change for the most part (although it was really silly when I was siting there for like 10 seconds wondering why I hadn't recovered balance yet and then thought OH YEEEAAH! right! hehe...) but I think that the whole sprint should be counted as moving one room for the "don't be hasty" balance instead of consuming it completely, as it seems to do. Just my opinion, but whatever.

I'm a little upset over the ability to queue angel/demon afflictions, but I suppose I can live with it for a while. In a perfect world, aquas, guardians, and angels/demons would have chances to miss. *nudge*

I have no clue how overpowered the change to investing will be, since the guardian class is the one I have the least experience with and information on. I guess the best we can do now is log our encounters with the new change in place, and then see if this change does truly overpower the archetype.