Just as a note, these last batch of changes are from a monthly "mini report" which were prepared by all the Envoys to redress major combat balance issues. In other words, these changes represent a consensus among all Envoys.

I can't really say I agree with the change, or alot of the current 'envoys'. Eitherway Geb hit the nail on the head, wait and see some logs of good guardians and the possibility with the change.

From experience, it doesn't overpower the class. Torak most of the time you're offence didn't really do much to hurt me from my recollections fighting you. Becuase of the queuing, if you get knocked out of timing or hindered, then you have to wait for the demon to come back around and start your combo's again, unless you spend the time to re-invest your demon every time you get hindered. In fact as a warrior, no nihilist ever worried me once i got my curing down, and that includes all the previous nihilists. I have never seen a nihilist fighter good enough to threaten -any- of the top tier of fighters.

Once you get the skill in discipline to see how much mana they have (balance at omnitrans) absolve should never EVER fail unless you get a dodgy bit of lag in between discerning and absolving, in which case lag isn't taken into considerations in balance either.

EDIT: As always i'd like to see some logs of it too, i'll be posting them up as we go along but it'd be nice if we saw some celestines going at it. Hell sacrifice much just be workable with the changes.

Wiccans are fine, but I still say the fae are weak. I mean, a Celestine with Healing still has an offense; he can have a double afflicting angel, try for inquisition, etc. Healer Wiccans are down to lash, lash, lash...

Murphy, I will post a log after of me wracking you while your curing was 'downpat' the fact is I beat all the top tier but Daevos and Geb(Save a few) at one time or another. If you don't know how to use the skills, learn more. Nihilists, Celestines were both fine classes. There was no reason to upgrade them further. As for sacrifice, it was already do able, you have posted logs of it, and the only reason I never used it is the powercost/benefits are laughable. The upgrade was a big un-needed one. But like Geb said, let it play its self out, I am sure that any decent guardian will be able to slaughter with this change.

Um, i don't think you've wracked me since i switched to Thorgal's base system and redid it all.

And i'm reserving my judgement personally, as I don't see this really upsetting the balance all that much, so while i'm disagreeing with you i share your 'wait and see' attitude.

And sacrifice just isn't a viable kill option against anyone decent, and you know it.

Don't you have a log entitled something like "Sacrifice against someone decent, finally"?

Oh we never faught with your recent system, mainly because you went geo and had no skills. Shortly after I got bored and quit. Anyways, Sacrifice is viable, with ecto and scabies/epilepsy and option of both contagion and your thrall its very doable.

Warriors are not better bashers at a higher level compared to a Mage/Cosmic of the same level. A level 99 Warrior will miss a level 99 Mage will not. On top of that with the damage stat added in, a Level 99 warrior's WS hit may not kill the mob you are fighting while a Mage's WS hit most definately will.

Which is silly. If Ixion takes one sword, and hits something 32 times, it should die. Does it really take 16 combos to kill things? The damage stat should influence them both the same, and if it doesn't, something is weird.

I know it can take me more than 16 combos to kill the current astral mobs. But I'm a tracker, lowmagic aslaran meaning my strength buffs arent as high in comparison.

While the amount of hits warriors take to kill things may seem high, what everyone seems to be forgetting is that they're using speed weapons, which makes they're attacks take roughly 2.5 seconds balance. I don't know how fast staff is, but symbol/cosmicfire is 4.5 seconds. Factor in a warrior's health buffs, and warrior bashing is by no means weak.

Yours is based of off eq balance. So a mugwump is fast as hell same goes for mugwump mages. Warriors use speed and you thinking that every warrior is at 2.5 seconds per swing is off. Race helps with speed and 279 speed weapons help too but as it stands and the whole point is that WE MISS the rest NEVER MISS. No matter what speed a warrior swings his sword against mobs with, then at least being trans in the specialization they chose they shouldn't miss either. And what health buff? Surge? the lowmagic Con one? Go fight a garshade see how much an advantage a health buff is compared to never missing.

Well, a health buff is certainly helpful with linked Astral creatures in my experience. I always have to hit and run with them.

Alright!!! Finally a step in the right direction of balancing the insane Aqua demesne. Now maybe we can convince the Divine that the "earthquake" in a Geo demesne should act the same as currents do. Since when the ground is shaking and bucking under your feet it should make you move rooms as it does in Mountains of Madness.

Aren't most warriors at 2.5 seconds? If Ashteru gets 2.8 seconds as a Tae'dae, I'd think neutral balance would be roughly 2.5. Mugwumps pay dearly for their speed and with the introduction of weights, even a telekinetic mugwump can't get very tanky.

Warrior health buffs are weathering and surge. These may not seem like much to someone who went through the surge nerf, but remember that other classes don't get health buffs in their guildskills.

I still hit and run and dont use Surge alot since it has such a high power cost for little reward. But when we have to run in and out we can run in miss alot and have to run out. Unlike the rest who do hit and run when they run in they hit each time then run out. And can't anyone who takes low magic get the con buff? Then with health blessings and tosha quest they can have health buffs that are equivalent to weathering/surge and still hit every time.

Or warriors can have health blessings and tosha quest AND weathering/surge. That's a stupid argument.

It was worth a shot