But then wouldn't the bonecrushers be screwed over??

Not wielded, just in your inventory.

Group combat doesnt mean 5v5..

And the hack vine original thing that was thankfully disregarded as completely stupid was just that. You CAN be permalocked with this skill no doubt about it... with darkseed/vines/lash it is not hard to do. You DO bleed insane amounts also which also is bizarre since alot of wounding warriors do not give you that much bleeding with one hit.

You need to understand that no one is asking for the removal of the skill. It just came out and people are testing the flaws in it. Isn't that what we are supposed to do? If anyone else in the basin had a permalock means to destroy someone without giving them a chance to counter I am sure that you defenders of this would be grabbing your torches and joining the mob.

Permalocks are currently in existance because writhing writhes from entanglement last. The original idea was for something else to be the cure, so you can writhe from entanglement while curing the vines.

What is this about "oh if 5 druids gang up on me I'll die in X number of rounds" ? We don't and shouldn't balance things against overwhelming odds, you can and should die to them. Five moondancers can kill anyone with under 4320 max mana in whatever their lag time is, a quarter of a second at most? lash-lash-lash-toadcurse-stomp. This really shouldn't be being factored into arguments. If it's an unstopable basinwide instakill for 0 power then point it out as such, because the "but if" arguements don't hold water.

It doesn't take five druids. All it takes is two - one to vines and one to lash.

I actually do want the flaws to be pointed out, and a couple have been already. That's exactly what needs to happen. Unfortunately, I want opinions on those flaws to be based on calm and rational testing. Declaring that this skill causes thousands of bleeding without any counter and completely negates the ability to escape from regular entanglements just hasn't been demonstrated. There are cures that don't appear in any of the logs I've seen so far, and that makes me wonder whether the conclusions could be a little premature.

Obviously you bleed a lot, 170 bleeding is pretty extreme stuff... I think only desert smudge will hit for more. If you are forced to writhe out, you get another bleeding hit as well. The question is not whether this skill is powerful though, it is whether it is overpowered. I haven't really seen very informed arguments about whether there are strategies that make this skill impossible or near-impossible to counteract, only that in certain situations it will eventually overcome someone.

You should know that the original suggestion was actually a lot less useful than what the admin decided to implement, which makes me think that there is a reason why certain aspects were beefed up and modified. As Shorlen says, originally we wanted to avoid the extra levels of writhe protection thinking that it would be too powerful, but the admin (perhaps thinking as you do that weaker = stupid) decided not to go with an easier method of removal of the thorns. Consequently, there are a host of new strategic options that now exist for incredible hindering offense, and I'd like to see how it plays out before searching for a knee-jerk adjustment or removal. Additionally, the original proposal did not include an initial bleeding hit, only as a result of movement or trying to jerk a limb free of a vine without waiting to use an enchantment. That these aspects were changed seems to imply that the amount of bleeding a Druid should be potentially looking at is supposed to be significant. Again, while my first impression, like yours perhaps, is that these changes are quite amazing boosts to the skill... as it was deliberately changed I'd like to see some objective testing going on to determine exactly how the final product fits into Hartstone and Blacktalon strategy.

If I am coming off as defensive, I'm afraid that is because I have quite a fondness for this lovely little skill... and I don't really want to see arguments against it just because its not nice and easy to counter, like druidry essentially has been until this point. If there are obvious imbalances, let's air them... but let's not exaggerate or manipulate the reality.

Ok, that was a little too long-winded. In a nutshell: Test first, complain after!

The ability to writhe from the entanglement of your choice needs to be implemented like Imperian (and the others as well?). I.E. so you could WRITHE or WRITHE . Like WRITHE IMPALE, WRITHE WEB, WRITHE TRANSFIX, WRITHE PINLEG, WRITHE THORNS, etc.

We'll probably do that (though it's not as easy to implement as one may think).

Given the lack of power cost on rend/lash, and the bleeding and whatnot, I think that summer/tipheret should have some affect against the lash, for example, if not removing all of them, then removing 1-3 of the lashes.

Given that nothing stops writhe, I'm not sure that 1-3 is a good number if that works like that. It should be far less, because you can writhe immediately after summering, right?

Druids are made to bleed people. That they do this better than wounding warriors really isn't an issue.

Ok if druids are meant to bleed people, what are wounding warriors meant to do? Stand up comedy at the local nexus? That is like agreeing that lash should bleed more than amputate. Oh noes! I have some vine around my arms and am bleeding like mad.... or OH NO I lost my arm... but wait I am not bleeding as badly as if I were entangled in thorny goodness.

And I agree with laysus if it costs no power to lash, summer/tipheret should burn off more. Or maybe have it cost 1 power per lash.

And Elryn, I am not sure why people haven't logged anything with trying to cure using different methods other than when Daevos was totally prone and unable to do anything.

One more thing for those who didn't know - sap cures all lashed limbs, and grants immunity to more being lashed. They do not combine at all.

That makes no sense really, but it's good to hear, from a mechanics standpoint.

And just for all those who don't know... Only druids can sap... and only they can lash. So I doubt a druid is going to be thinking... aww bub you have had enough let me sap you now instead and heal all your lashes. So even if sap works in that effect against lash/rend it is useless. UNless you are trying to say for a commune vs commune fight? But 1v1 nah never gonna be helpful... That, and Celest and Magnagora do not have druids roaming the streets. I think the only thing Celest has is it's own personal Moondancer but that is it. Could be wrong though

...the point is.. if they use one method, you're protected from the other. People were pre-emptively worrying about Lash+Sap. Which isn't actually possible.

I thought people realized that lash + sap weren't possible as soon as it lash/rend was released. Hmm sorry they didn't realize that.

Hartstone is better off with lash. Blacktalon is with sap and with lash great.

Well, no, it doesn't make sense, since the sap is too slippery for the vines to grab hold of them, but too sticky for them to move easily