Couple things:

This past envoy report, there were major changes suggested to help tracking, however, there were too many (17 when they allow 12) at the time so the tracking changes were pushed to a later date.

So, for one, there should be tracking changes coming soon. As well, that's unfair to critique the envoys that they're solely trying to boost their own guild skills. Sure, it happens, but it happens with skills that are pretty much useless. Preserve comes to mind.

As well, there is a tracking envoy, and his name is Geb. Personally, you can't find a better envoy, as he is incredibly knowledgeable and very fair in his judgements of skills and balance.

EDIT: Also, I don't see how that change to pits was so crippling. Pits are still very useful.

2nd EDIT: Last I checked, dart traps were also very useful, some would say overpowered.

Really, there're so many tracking upgrades in the works that you shouldn't worry. I'm foreseeing overpowered trackers. That change was to address bonecrushers with knockdown and pits.

On that note, envoys are looking for riding suggestions. Keep them limited in number. Ideas, children!

There are many threads on riding... I think the best one would be a skill that prevents you from being knocked off your mount when prone, perhaps a sort of defense, so you have to be knocked prone twice before getting settled back on, before you fall offer your mount. especially flying ones.


p.s. I stole your sig so you can steal mine.

As others said, they shaved off 16 or so tracking suggestions to go through halfway through the month at the next report time, instead of accepting a report from us. One went through early for some reason or another, but tracking isn't being ignored.

Take all the slots next month to for tracking, I wanna make cluck an insta kill If you are below half mana or health I cluck and several evil ethereal chickens come in and rip you to shreds....

On a more serious note I hope to see the changes soon, and be able to play with them... And Geb if you read this the issues we talked about with snakes should get brought up now since they did nerf the pits.

It kinda bugs me that Celestian magi were given a more powerful group vs one killing power than druids were given with Thornlash, and they still have hailstorm for group vs group killing power. What advantages do druids have in a group over aquamancers? Nothing.

Channels was a major nerf to druidic combat.


As was said elsewhere, envoys are not trying to balance the game so much as make their class stronger and other classes weaker. This is not how it should be.

I'm really glad I don't have the time to play Lusternia anymore, or these changes would actually bother me

How is preserve more powerful? It's more easily cured, (sipping fire requires neither balance for writhing nor equilbirum to burn the vines) AND it requires a target to be at under half health.

And I don't think it's viable for one mage to do the half health damage preserve and the next one to get the preserve instant kill, unless it's timed perfectly. Regeneration will tick and push them back over half health very quickly.

Honestly, why are you arguing about Group v. one kills? If a group jumps one person, they're likely going to die. Using preserve to do that is just a waste of power, much better to just web/hinder staff staff staff.

Channels was only a nerf to druid combat in as much it's a nerf to every other combat versus guardians/wiccans. The only reason you're pointing this out is because druids had a significant advantage versus wiccans prior to this change.

And druid advantages in group combat? Um, passive elevation changing really screws groups over. Granted, you don't have an area attack, but let me throw something back at you that I've heard many times before from you: Communes != Cities and the abilities should not all mirror each other.

Stop whining about perceived nerfs/boosts to other classes. The envoys all conferred on this and together the changes were accepted. If you have a problem, take it up with your envoy.

So, on the 3p hit, you sip, on the 5p hit, you are at half health and off sip balance. on the next 5p hit, you are dead. It is 14 power for the group instead of 8 for rend, true, but the advantages over rend are that it is just one command, so you don't have to deal with masked curing (shrouded writhes, leaving the room and writhing, etc), you don't have the ubercures (rub ignite to cure all vines, though it costs eq, or leave forest terrain, since moving isn't extremely hindered by vines).

Also, you can suppliment it with icefloe and chills daggers. You can't suppliment thornlash/rend with anything else. So, icefloe hits, they sip fire, they're now off potion bal. Aqua 1 hits with preserve, fire def is stripped. Aqua 2 hits with preserve, they are chilled. Aqua 3 hits, they are frozen. They sip health. Aqua 4 hits, they are frozen and at half health, aqua 5 hits, they are dead. Same five it takes for druids, ignoring the fact that you can rub ignite somewhere in there with druids to survive.

Now, with daggers. Aqua 1 sets two chills daggers and icefloe. Purgative balance is 4ish seconds, right? Icefloe hits, they are off purge balance. Dagger hits, they are off fire def. Dagger hits, they are chilled. They get to use a potion once before both daggers hit again. Aqua 1 hits with preserve to get them down to half health, Aqua 2 hits with preserve to kill them.

Something wrong with the math there? I don't know the exact specs of daggers.

However, the same can be said for a collection of most archetypes. It's infeasible to get 5 Aquamancers together than can preserve at any given time. Guess what? 5 Hartstoners could do the same with Thornlash, with a higher success rate. Unlike with entanglements, health regenerates by itself. While I can see what you mean, you'll never come across a situation where 5 Aquamancers work together and instantly kill someone with Preserve in the way you mentioned.

Remember that purgative balance is very short. It is between 1.5 and 2 seconds. Telekinetic daggers work off of two timers. One hits every 4 seconds, the other hits every 6 seconds. This makes for a mean of 5 seconds for 2 strikes, which can be sipped away. Admittedly, activing frosting from two Aquamancers will be able to occasionally bring you down to frozen. From 1 Aquamancer, the active freeze could still be sipped away. Adding Icefloe, you may have some trouble. Shield just once to catch up, since daggers don't hit through it, or make use of love potion/parade.

Just skimmed, but one of the problems is where you stuck the health sip. The damage from the chills preserve is very low, Narsrim tested it on me and it did lkike, 400 damage when I had 6800 health. It won't trigger a sip. You're also forgetting sparkleberries and healing scrolls. So, once I do get hit down to half health, I will immediately sip health, eat sparkleberry, and read the scroll, giving me back maybe 2000 health. Unless you have a 6th aquamancer, I will then have 4 seconds to get 2 fire sips in.

The sip balance for fire is something like 2 seconds (if even that much). It's really really fast.

Narsrim and I tested preserve 1 on 1, using a full demense, reality, phantoms, and charybdon daggers. He was unable to preserve me even when I jsut sat there.

Mactans do provide more of an assistance, I'm sure, but shrugging helps a lot. We weren't able to test this, and it's the one thing I'm worried about. However, I don't think it has any application to group combat.

Honestly, I don't understand this argument. There is no need to balance group vs 1 person fighting, it's understood that they're going to die. Actually seeing mages try to go for preserves rather than hailstorm/staffing in group combat would be such a waste of effort.


EDIT: Actually, a 7th Aquamancer. The 6th will drop my health back to half, 7th for preserve. When was the last time you saw 7 aquamancers in a group? And if there ARE 7 aquamancers in a group, wouldn't you be more worried about hailstorm or coordinated staffing?? 7 staff attacks should equal at least 5000 health. It'd be stupid to try for preserve.

Doesn't AllHeale also take care of chills/frozen?

Test again with double Mactans daggers. Charybdon is not aiding in getting the frozen state. Also remember that a person with Discern can easily check to see when his target is at half-health. It is also possible to, at least when Icefloe ticks, determine what frozen state a person is in by the Icefloe message. Last, I was able to set my demesne up in a way that made it possible for me passively give a person shivering (without the aid of Mactans daggers) after each full demesne tick.

Anyhow, I did voice my concerns about preserve in the hands of a Telekinetic. In the hands of other specialties, it is not that worrisome.

Yeah, I'd like to test double mactans sometime. I believe Narsrim did go ahead to test with someone else, but at the time, I had to get going.

Yes, but that is a 20-second cycle. Icefloe and Needlerain can possibly hit three times in that period (Needle rain does strip the defence), and the double daggers can possibly hit 9 times combined in that period.

Well, I didn't mean it as an all-save, but when you get dropped to half health by it, the scroll and the allheale will at least protect you from the instantaneous group-ganking.

Well I am not worried over the group possibilities of Preserve, since abilities are rarely balanced around group combat. There are already plenty enough other abilities that can be used effectively in a group to kill a person quickly.

I was just adding on to Nico's response to Shorlen's breakdown of how a small group off Aquas could insta-gank someone with Preserve, that's all. I don't know anything about the skill, so I was just throwing in another cure for part of the situation.

Let me edit for clarity:

1. The reality change was Anja's sugestion.

2. The Liquidform change was Xenthos's alternative (modified by the administration). I simply wanted it to be less crappy.

3. The Preserve change was Estarra's idea after Athana last minute veto'd my icefloe idea.

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Likewise, your opinion is your opinion. MOST envoys DID NOT agree with the hailstorm/boulderblast suggestions by Flacarealah so far. As for what I ask, I suggest you not worry about it. I post ideas I have, which I am freely able to do as an envoy. If it is too much or too excessive ANY envoy (that includes you) can veto it and Estarra always has the final call.

I realize you aren't getting your way everytime you want it - but that's life.

A buff to another class does not a nerf to your class make.