I can understand wanting to keep consistent with your RP, but I thought being guild champion was about defending and protecting? Not to give you free reign to go and cause destruction wherever you like because it's your job because your champion. I've said it many times before, and maybe some people think it's stupid. But when I was champ, I never took that as an excuse to cause problems (i hate to use the word grief, as it has been thrown around WAY too much in these forums) just because I could. I never killed someone who wasn't an enemy of Glomdoring. And about 90% of my kills were defending against a raid.

I spent, and still spend, alot more time trying to convince my 'wayward and disillusioned' cousins in the north that there is no reason to hate us.

Pinky is Shiri. Duh.

I think the biggest problem with all of this boils down to design. On one hand, Glomdoring and Serenwilde are designed to be diametrically opposed. Glomdoring wants the fae, Serenwilde wants the fae. Glomdoring has the Wyrden forest (RP-ed as taint-like from the beginning), Serenwilde fights for the pure forest. In the end, there are infinite reasons for us to fight. But I can understand why it would be so discouraging for the Glomdoring.

The events that have occured now, however, are only halfway changing things. Glomdoring still wants the fae and Serenwilde still wants the fae. Glomdoring still has a twisted and scary forest, Serenwilde still wants to purify it. The recent events seem only an attempt to put a band-aid on things, to say 'Sure, the Glomdoring is your exact opposite, but you should get along anyway.' There just don't seem to be many IC ways to make it work.

That being said, I would very much like to see the Glomdoring built up. I've considered starting a character in the Glomdoring myself, to see if I could help things at all, but then I am broke even OOC and could never come up with credits to make any progress. (If anyone would care to donate some credits, let me know and I'll be there!)

I suppose my end conclusion is simply that the Glomdoring or Serenwilde will have to change drastically, we will have to compromise RP (which is part of what makes Lusternia great), or things will continue to degenerate in the Glomdoring. None of those sound like great options to me.

EDIT: Back to address the original question, I believe in this case it might be an administration issue. I agree that they are busy, and they've put some attempt into changing things, but I think it will take much more than the band-aid attempt that was tried. It might also come down to sacrificing some amount of RP for the OOC resolution. I do not believe it should be the duty of the organization's leadership, though, since that sacrifices the RP of the organization as a whole, and not simply any individual person.

Havn't read any of hte thread, save this last post.. however, GLomdoring has laws that only those fae that explicitly want to be in Glomdoring, are allowed to be brought to Glomdoring... so I'm not sure where the "inherent" conflict is, save that Serenwilde wants everything and doesn't care about the wishes of the fae.

Your post is completely and absolutely OOC. It doesn't make any sense from a Serenwilde RP position, but that has already been hashed over in other threads so I won't bother here. Suffice it to say that nobody (or, at least, very few) in the Serenwilde find it so easy. If you'd like more of an IC perspective, contact Derian in game and he'll be happy to explain to you the Serenwilde side of things (as he sees them).

But you said the issue boils down to design, which I was under the impression is an OOC concept?

What your stating is a player made situation, not a design situation.

Heh. I'll counter you bias roleplay stance with our own:

No Fae desire Mother Night. Some, however, feel bound to suffer under her for who she was. They do not understand that Mother Night is insane - twisted and corrupted by the Taint. This cannot be allowed. First, it places said Fae in danger. Their eternal spirits yearn for freedom to serve Nature and if fooled by her, they are trapped and suffer. Second, Mother Night, as said, is corrupted and as such threatens the very sanctity of Nature itself - allowing her to be empowered runs the risk of corrupting Nature as a whole. It is thus the humble duty of the Moondancers to ensure the Fae are protected even if they are unaware or unsure of the problem and to defy any force that threaten Nature as a whole.

Of course, these view points were all roleplayed out and supported or even stated by Mother Moon or Lady Lisaera IC.... so... there is your inherent conflict.





Moon vs Night is a design situation. Hart vs Crow is a design situation.

Regardless of what the Moondancers do or the Shadowdancers do... Moon and Night are still going to fight over Faethorn. They are going to spawn champions and send them into war against each other. I would agree, Serenwilde vs Glomdoring is -not- necessarily a design situation, but it might as well be.

Likewise, Hart and Crow both seek to destroy the other. Even now, the White Hart speaks of how twisted and tainty Crow is, and how he must protect Nature and all that jazz from him.

Ok, read the first post.. Shiri, in the real world politicans and people who need to make decisions for organizations, often work on the premise that if I do X what will the "public" think.

One thing I find very frustrating about lusternia, is that there is never any good inter-community politics because nobody cares what the other group thinks. No body cares if they are pointed out at being hypracrits.

I don't know any real talking head or politican that when being accused of being a hypracrit says "Your right, I am one, now suck it up." Even the Dictators like Castro try to pretend they are 100% honest and working for the betterment of everybody. Saddam is even pleading that what his gassing of kurds was for the best of the country and the world.

In Lusternia however, nobody ever even pretends to argue that. I use to make those arguments, and people just looked at me funny, all confused wondering what planet I was on.

If as a leader you can't say to someone, "I know your justified, but what your doing really looks bad, you should do it in a way that it doesn't look poorly upon the rest of us" then there is something rotten in Denmark.

@narsrim: You appear to have bias issues, and confuse IC with OOC.

However, in responce to your points about NightvsMoon CrowvsHart... those are quests, they are ment to be handleed through the performance of the quest.

The quests are both designed such that you can counter the other group from winning without raiding enemy territory. So why the need to raid enemy territory?

Moon and Night are both very explicit about what they want, and neither of them say, Kill Guards, hunt spiders, and destroy Warrior guildhalls. Nor do they say to kill anybody in faethorn who is not your friend.

You could create a poll with the same name, etc, then use the mod priv to move everyone's posts to the other topic, then close this one.

I actually don't have anything useful to add on topic though... sorry!

I don't really know what you're talking about here, can you repeat that so that I understand it please?

@Richter: I could, but it's a bit late now, so whatever. Next time I'll remember that though!

I think he ment if someone in your organisation is being an idiot then you should tell them to shut up and stop it, and that pretty much any action no matter how stupid can be justified with some sort of roleplay reason.

Again, you're mistaking possible OOC resolutions for possible IC resolutions. If you're going to RP, you can't differentiate between "they're only our enemies in quests" and "they're our enemies physically." If organizations are enemies, they are enemies from an IC perspective. That doesn't mean we have to raid daily, but it does mean we can't just live and let live, except in the quest arena.

@mitbulls: really? You can't distinguish between a Muslim who is sitting there nicely and a Muslim who is blowing up a building? sometimes a person is doing something that harms your org, and sometimes they arn't, you don't need to be killing them when they arn't unless your out for some sort of revenge or vengence.

@shiri: Organizations, normally care about thier perception in the public. A leader should be able to say to one of thier constiuents, that what they are doing is "ruining thier image." Most organizations have some semblence of caring about justice and being 'correct.' so when somebody does something that looks bad to the public, they put on a public showing of correcting that wrong, making it so they can distance themselves from the action and not be blamed for condoning it.

You can take a real world example here from the Hamas Government of the Palastian Authority. A non Hamas group blew up a falafel stand, Hamas said "We didn't do it, but it serves you right".. the Abbas (the political rival of Hamas) said "You shouldn't say that, it looks bad, now I'm going to veto your security bill untill you appologize for supporting that action" Abbas still agrees that Israel is a terrible country, but when it comes to the act of terrorism he says that looks bad. (even though he use to do it himself)

Wow! A real-life analogue using Israel that doesn't twist the facts!

Even if you did mispell 'Palestinian'.

Daganev doesn't spell. Remember, we're not reading text but this is all said out loud, and if it looks funny then it's just your ears going funny.

No wait, confusing that with something, what was that again...

Kidding.

---

The problem with your comparison Daganev is that the Serenwilde isn't really the US and Glomdoring isn't really the Muslim faith.

While there are plenty of Muslims who're not militant religious radicals, there are, by definition, no Glomdorites who do not strive for the eventual covering of the Basin with the wyrd. Just as, while there are plenty of US citizens who don't mind Muslims, the vast majority of Serenwilders by definition hate and at least subconsciously fear the taint for what it did to the forests, and thus strive to eradicate it.

If you want to apply OOC comparisons, we're more talking about the KKK and the Black Panthers. Or something like it. (Or the US Military clan and Al-Quaeda)

Also, the vast majority of Muslims is not trained in some form of deadly combat, whereas all the Glomdorians do train in skills meant to make people snuff it.

As a consequence, you just don't get the kind of politics in Lusternia that bases on the assumption that there ARE plenty of decent people in your opponent nation, so you can't just throw a nuke and be rid of the lot. While, if any of Lusternia's nations had an equivalent, they'd use it without any doubts. And political relations just act on the same tangent. It doesn't matter what your enemies think, we must kill them, and there's the end to that.

Or at least that's what it normally turns out as.

Having read those posts it seems like Daganev is saying that it's a problem with Lusternia's design that that doesn't happen, rather than something the players can/should correct.

Thats odd, becuase In Achaea, and Imperian and even in Aetolia, you did get that type of politics.

Tons of public posts with people trying to prove that they are indeed "good" and the other folks are "evil"

You don't get that in Lusternia, and I don' think it has anything to do with the design of the game.

I get the general impression that people don't want that type of "nonsense" in Lusternia, because ultimately, you can't destroy the other group or really ever convert thier ideaology.

Actually, I think it is a design issue. In Achaea, for example, none of the organizations are designed to remain in conflict, other than perhaps Shallam and Mhaldor. Even for the two of them, however, it's solely a philosophical conflict. There are no quests, villages, power contests, or anything of the sort between them. Still, I believe very few from Shallam care what people from Mhaldor think, or vice versa. They make those public posts simply to convince Ashtan, Eleusis and Cyrene (I won't even include Hashan, they're not really scary enough) don't consider them enemies.

In the end, I believe we're forced into an RP of conflict - which is actually something I love. However, it might somehow be possible to redirect the conflict, like the communes against the cities. I believe that's the direction the admins are trying to go with recent events, but I still believe it will take more work.

except that it's not likely to happen anytime soon. not in any part because of the efforts of the admin. but because the players in some of the organizations (mostly serenwilde) are unwilling to change.

Each commune/city has every philosphical and quest reason to go to war and fight against the other. Each one, also has every reason to want to convince the population of the other community that thier way is the correct way, and they would be better off living in the more just/correct life style. That is, if you want that to happen. If you don't want that to happen, then there is every reason for it not to happen.

However, this thread was asking, how can a person be IC and still have OOC considerations, and I think "caring about what -others- think" is a very easy way to do that. Even if there is no concrete "other" who you can point to.