Fair enough, I personally feel its better to actually balance the classes instead of just saying if you don’t want to be imbalanced you should just drop your class.

But your the admin so its your choice if you want to keep exp loss imbalanced or not.

What does that mean, Ferlas?

Make them all the same? Wouldn't that be a little dull?

The Ebonguard are generally held to be a much better warrior guild than the Ur'Guard. There are many threads on this forum which say so, in great detail. However, they don't have lich. I call that balance.

I think it was murphy who said in his eyes the best warrior guild are the serenguard and they have a res on top of that aiakon, so isnt that imbalance?

...no?

Watch me not agree with Murphy: "Hey, Murphy! I disagree with you."


Now. Even -if- you're right... would the correct thing to do be to give the Ebonguard a rezz, or to nerf the Serenguard back to the approximate standard of the Ur'Guard/Ebonguard?


The fact remains, that the source of all Glom's woes is NOT a lack of rezz skill. Magnagora is hardly better off - the complaints about lich a while back in Idiots explain this very nicely (and the number of able lichers is very much in the minority)... yet Magnagora is doing very well thank you. If we're fine with Lich + Vitae, and you're not fine with transmigration + viate, perhaps it's got nothing to do with the rezz skill. Perhaps it's because you're a small commune with daft ideas concerning diplomacy and a habit of scaring off the non-rp-interested fighting contingent.

Care to back it up? Because he did and he explained why, I think he actually said serenguard bonecrusher would be the best overall. He gave some ideas about tatics as well, would like like to do so as opposed to just saying no with no reasons?



Well by your logic ur'guard and serenguard should be weaker warriors than ebonguard because the ebonguard dont have an exp loss prevention skill.




First of all add it in another post this is like the thrid edit ive replyed to, I like chronology.

But yes I agree glomdorings diplomacy does suck as you put it, I’m not saying that glomdorings problems all stem from the lack of a res skill. I’m saying I would like exp loss to be balanced across the board if you reread what I’ve posted I’d also like equal treatment to geomancers as well.

No.

Your serenguard argument is (as explained above) a digression.

In any case, I see little to be gained from pursuing this argument. Experience has taught me that when you are in a forum argument, Ferlas, you debate with a preconsidered idea of what the right answer is, and you set that idea in stone. You are incapable of modifying your views, and your aim is to modify those of others. This makes you an exasperating person with which to converse. As far as I am concerned, a number of people on this thread have already made abundant arguments which invalidate your own. No doubt you will continue to post, hoping to achieve some illusion of 'winning' by taking the last word... but I will not. I do not think there is much left to say.


Edit: This is getting confusing, because we're both editing our posts after the event. Consider the above response to be to the first third of Ferlas's last post.

Ebonguard are not the best warrior guild.
Depending on how you look at it (I look at all warriors defensively in general) It would go

Serenguard=Paladin=Ur'guard=Ebonguard.

If you like offence, Paladin=Serenguard=Ur'guard=Ebonguard,

if you like mobility and sheer tankiness, Ur'guard=Serenguard=Paladin=Ebonguard.

Exp loss prevention: Ur'guard/Paladin(lich is killer but sacrifice does hold a lot of merit)=Serenguard=Ebonguard


Mrh

And if you just like overall offence/defence, Serenguard=Paladin=Ur'guard=Ebonguard

And actually having thought about it a while, lack of an exp loss reduction skill really has no bearing on how glomdoring as a whole operates. For me personally I wouldn't mind not having a rezz-skill if I felt that our other combat abilities were on par with every other warrior guild, but in general night/crow tend to lack extensively for warrior guilds (slightly different matter when comparing druids/wiccans)

But hopefully at the envoy summit I will get a chance to beg estarra to look at one last re-envoy that I'm working on for Night, so that hopefully we don't spend another 4 months with a sub par skillset.

Alright let's put this a different way.

Serenwilde has a ressurect skill available to them and 0 anti ressurect skills available to them.

Glomdoring has an anti-ressurect skill available to them, and still has 1 ressurect skill available.

Whether you like it or not Balance doesn't mean everybody does the same thing. Sometimes it means you have a skill that directly opposes someone elses.

'and if you can't figure out how to utilise the skill. I am sure Magnagora who has been eating corpses for a very long time can show you how to keep people from being ressurected.

If you go by your views though, Serenwilde has two ressurect skills, Transmigration and Coven.

Or 4, as all of celest is usually willing to throw down for serenwilde whenever possible.


But alas, I wish we would all drop the issue . I've decided to take this time to work on Night, in hopes we can bring the Ebonguard to standard offensively and defensively, a ressurection skill is not going to impact our combat ability, and good envoys are needed more than my resurgem.

Ressurect is ressurect. Ultimately the point remains. You are ressurected in Serenwilde, but you cannot stop anyone from being ressurected in Serenwilde.

You can stop people from being resurrected in Glomdoring, and 1/3 of them can still be resurrected themselves.

Well, likely less since transmigration requires trans ecology, a third skillset, as well as tons of power.


@Diamante: Go raid EtherSeren together with Daganev, 's where he has a rezzskill.

The cost of a skill or setup of a skill does not negate the fact the skill is available.

Erm I can stop people being resurected as much and as easily as serenwilde can. Or am I missing something?

This would be an example in Literal and Figurative terms.

Just because you, this would be literal, cannot do it, does not mean you, this would be the figurative to express Glomdoring, cannot do it.

Where as nobody in Serenwilde can do it.

At any rate, the case has been made, feel free to post what you wish in response. It is quite apparent that unless we all agree with your apparent expertise on balance, that we are treating you unfairly.

Actually, Serenwilde can too. GET BODY, OFFER BODY/PUT BODY IN MOONHART. It's just a little slower.

The best part of this thread?

Estarra posted that, essentially, she'd consider adding an exp loss reducing skill to Glom (not necessarily a res skill, but one that reduced experience loss in one way or another) if someone gave a unique suggestion as to what the skill should be that wasn't copying a skill another organization had, and which fit Glomdoring's unique RP.

And what did the Glomdorians do? Post suggestions and ideas?

Nope, just whine some more that they don't have a res skill.

Seriously guys, c'mon, that's just sad.

I'd suggest things, but I'm blanking at the moment, and don't have much personal experience with Glomdoring's RP, having never been a Glomdorian.

Ferlas, take a hint! Let me summarize the arguments for you.

First, we have Verithrax saying:
- I don't see why a ressurection skill is 'necessary' or how it affects game balance.
- Loss of experience is a part of it. Don't like it? Don't fight.

Then Zenji said:
- The only time I've used resurgem DURING a battle recently was when Daevos+Shamarah were raping us the other month when we just had about no one around. Anyway, I resurgemed two low lvl, inexperienced people about 2 times each, because they just kept dieing so often, and I had to immolate someone twice as well.
- Having a resurgem coven active during a battle is just complete silliness and is all in Glomdoring's imagination.

Estarra:
- I would rather not see every city and commune have a ressurection skill simply because I think it is in Lusternia's overall best interests to have some diversity in their skills spread throughout the different player organizations, both for mechanical reasons as well as RP reasons.

Elryn's argument:
- Where is your envoy?

Then Rhoan:
- Glomdoring is not without an "exp loss reduction skill" It has transmigration.
- If you want one. join the Black Talon and stop whining.

And Aiakon:
- The Ebonguard are generally held to be a much better warrior guild than the Ur'Guard.

Finally, Terenas said:
- I'm confused... (Truthfully, I am often confused by Daganev's obscure arguments too.)

Anyway, how can I argue with such impeccable logic? Even though pretty much everyone else, with their own reason, agreed that Glomdoring needs some kind of xp reduction skill. Even though every day there are people avoided praying by skills such as resurgem, lichdom, and sacrifice.

Well, I concede and crawl back to my backyard. Why do I care anyway, I am a Tracker.

Out of everything I said, that's my 'argument'?

That was in response to Diamante saying Night/Crow sucked. Not regarding resurrection.

Alternative, to steal Daganev's idea that isn't an actual resurrect:

When a member of the Glomdoring does PRAY FOR SALVATION, instead of meeting the fates they get intercepted by Night/Crow, given an alternate series of messages about how they are disappointed you died, expect you to learn from it and not test their patience, etc. At the end, you step out of the Ravenwood with 1/4 the exp loss of actually praying.

You keep the precious "differences" but also limit how much that difference actually hurts.

Other ideas:
- The "wraith" suggestion we submitted.
- Various forms of crow "eggs" in which souls are stored and hatched after a time.
- Various other coven methods.
- When someone in crowform dies, they split into a flock of birds which can try to fly away and reform later, but can also be killed. The exp loss would only hit if the birds got killed.
- Etc. There are a lot of ideas, most of them are rezzes, however.


There IS an issue. A lot of our skills are far more RP-oriented, which is great for those of us who like RP, but envoys can't really fix a lot of it unless you guys are willing to listen to everything (the crow report before this most recent one was amazing in fixing what we actually had to be somewhat useful, I'm still thankful that you all went through the whole thing and instituted pretty much all of it). Unfortunately, that report generally stuck with the base skillset that you gave us which is very RP-oriented, and extra skills designed to try and make it a bit more useful either offensively or defensively were declined.

There currently is not a lot of an "edge", especially for the Ebonguard, to counter the lack of experience loss preventers. I am trying very hard to actually be constructive here, which is somewhat difficult given the last couple of pages which pretty much boil down to the same argument. I don't really think that's adding anything to the conversation at all, so perhaps we can just say "Hey, we argued our piece, now let's discuss how to fix it."