Change to Ethereal

by Estarra

Back to Common Grounds.

Ashteru2006-06-05 22:56:43
If you don't remove guards....as soon as you start hitting something, they'll run there. They'll come to YOU. You don't need to come to THEM. I don't see how anyone can raid under those conditions.
Xavius2006-06-05 22:58:09
Why would you hit anything?
Terenas2006-06-05 22:58:18
QUOTE(ferlas @ Jun 5 2006, 10:28 PM) 294524

Let me elaborate actually, at the moment the cosmic planes can be reached easily and you can avoid the guards to a fair extent

What are you talking about? Easy to get to? Unless you can Tesseract to someone else, have an Aethership, or a Cubix you cannot get to the Cosmic Planes without going through the guards at the Nexi. The guards do not more but they are grouped in 20+, only a large group of combatants can take those down.
ferlas2006-06-05 22:58:39
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 5 2006, 11:54 PM) 294551


Again, restating the earlier issues:

Currently, the ethereal communes have the advantages of a heavily defended entrance (a la cosmic), unterrainable environment (a la elemental), and full guard placement (a la prime commune). There is no reason for us to have all three; that is imbalanced. I do not believe anyone will dispute that.


Ah its a heavily defended entire area, not just an heavily defened enterance that is the issue sweety.

QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 5 2006, 11:54 PM) 294551

However, there are other issues to consider when approaching the balance. The fae are not slain, they are taken by a quest. Defenders can be observed without fear of retribution. The opposing commune has an unremovable freedom to flow around the territory. The fae do not automatically attack enemies. Blah blah, you know the drill. It's been covered.

Since raids on Ethereal are undetectable without someone physically squatting on the plane, watching for intruders (and in turn being watched by the would-be raiders), the somewhat bypassable burst defense of Celestia and Nil is not an equally passable defense. Instead, I suggest removing the advantages we have that puts us on the level of the cosmic planes--the archways. Thus, anyone who has a sliver of talent for raiding can gain access, and some resources can be obtained without ever risking contact with any guard or totem. Yes, it is true that it will still be a very different raiding dynamic than raiding cosmic, but it would make both equal in difficulty for the raider and defensibility for the defenders.


Ah well daughers and ladies do shout and call for help so they are not undetectable. They would not be equal in anyway, the ability to summon automatically 20 to 40 guards the moment an enemy sets foot into the land is a very powerful ability incase you didnt notice, not many people can even tank 10 guards let alone that many. The problem and the main issue, the issue that causes the imbalance is the fact that the communes have instant and vast guards defending their ether glom/seren plane.
Ashteru2006-06-05 22:58:52
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 5 2006, 10:58 PM) 294555

Why would you hit anything?

So like....I go in....and then stand around? O.o
WHAT do you define the purpose of raiding?
ferlas2006-06-05 23:00:01
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 5 2006, 11:58 PM) 294555

Why would you hit anything?


That is the point of a raid sweety, pvp?

QUOTE(terenas @ Jun 5 2006, 11:58 PM) 294556

What are you talking about? Easy to get to? Unless you can Tesseract to someone else, have an Aethership, or a Cubix you cannot get to the Cosmic Planes without going through the guards at the Nexi. The guards do not more but they are grouped in 20+, only a large group of combatants can take those down.



Any one with the skills of night or lowmagic can get up their and stay up their easily on their own with no help.
Anisu2006-06-05 23:00:04
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 6 2006, 12:54 AM) 294551

I can feel the urge to crush the poor girl's ego rising, so I'm just going to ignore Ferlas from here on out.

Again, restating the earlier issues:

Currently, the ethereal communes have the advantages of a heavily defended entrance (a la cosmic), unterrainable environment (a la elemental), and full guard placement (a la prime commune). There is no reason for us to have all three; that is imbalanced. I do not believe anyone will dispute that.

However, there are other issues to consider when approaching the balance. The fae are not slain, they are taken by a quest. Defenders can be observed without fear of retribution. The opposing commune has an unremovable freedom to flow around the territory. The fae do not automatically attack enemies. Blah blah, you know the drill. It's been covered.

Since raids on Ethereal are undetectable without someone physically squatting on the plane, watching for intruders (and in turn being watched by the would-be raiders), the somewhat bypassable burst defense of Celestia and Nil is not an equally passable defense. Instead, I suggest removing the advantages we have that puts us on the level of the cosmic planes--the archways. Thus, anyone who has a sliver of talent for raiding can gain access, and some resources can be obtained without ever risking contact with any guard or totem. Yes, it is true that it will still be a very different raiding dynamic than raiding cosmic, but it would make both equal in difficulty for the raider and defensibility for the defenders.

With this proposal killing an aspect would become near impossible. You talk about the little fae who are in the end not really important to the cities (remember we are trying to balance against the cities not against another commune). Killing an aspect would require you to be in the room with the aspect for some time (I would hope an aspect doesn't die in 5 staffcasts, it it does it needs changing), aspects call for guards, guards arrive, you stuck with however many guards the commune has places near the aspects. You can run yes but in the end your aspect will recover before it's over.

Or even better commune places 20 guards at aspect, with guards retargeting on hitting a barrier or divinefire you would need to slay all 20 before moving onto the aspect. I hope it's clear that this is rather unbalanced towards the supernals where you only have to deal with 1 or 2 archangels and a supernal.
Jack2006-06-05 23:00:58
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jun 5 2006, 11:58 PM) 294555

Why would you hit anything?

blink.gif

... blink.gif

blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif
Ashteru2006-06-05 23:01:56
Best solution imho would be:

Leave archways be.

Remove guards and totems from the whole ethereal, except guards at the archway and at the nexus. And the nexusguards only on standguard, otherwise they would come to the avatars help.
Yeah...that'd be it.

Ah, and don't forget another advantage. Communewarriors can get to Ethereal without help. Citywarriors need a lift to those planes.
ferlas2006-06-05 23:03:55
QUOTE(Anisu @ Jun 6 2006, 12:00 AM) 294561

With this proposal killing an aspect would become near impossible. You talk about the little fae who are in the end not really important to the cities (remember we are trying to balance against the cities not against another commune). Killing an aspect would require you to be in the room with the aspect for some time (I would hope an aspect doesn't die in 5 staffcasts, it it does it needs changing), aspects call for guards, guards arrive, you stuck with however many guards the commune has places near the aspects. You can run yes but in the end your aspect will recover before it's over.

Or even better commune places 20 guards at aspect, with guards retargeting on hitting a barrier or divinefire you would need to slay all 20 before moving onto the aspect. I hope it's clear that this is rather unbalanced towards the supernals where you only have to deal with 1 or 2 archangels and a supernal.


The aspects do not call for help, but that is a minor point considering that up to 40 guards will come running the moment that a enemy even sets foot near them, I really personally have never seen a group able to take 40 guards, let alone 40 guards and an average defence force with an unbreakable demense.

QUOTE(Ashteru @ Jun 6 2006, 12:01 AM) 294563

Best solution imho would be:

Leave archways be.

Remove guards and totems from the whole ethereal, except guards at the archway and at the nexus. And the nexusguards only on standguard, otherwise they would come to the avatars help.
Yeah...that'd be it.

Ah, and don't forget another advantage. Communewarriors can get to Ethereal without help. Citywarriors need a lift to those planes.


I agree and estarra seems to be leaning towards this, Im a bit worried that people arnt seeing the balance issue of 20 to 40 guards being overpowering though, it seems quite strange.
Anisu2006-06-05 23:05:14
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Jun 6 2006, 01:01 AM) 294563

Best solution imho would be:

Leave archways be.

Remove guards and totems from the whole ethereal, except guards at the archway and at the nexus. And the nexusguards only on standguard, otherwise they would come to the avatars help.
Yeah...that'd be it.

Well I would think the guards can't leave the nexus anyway because system wise it would mean the nexus was another area (just like on celestia guards can't chase you regardless of standguard or patrol). The question would be how to get guards to the archway in the first place, and how to prevent someone of just doing #alias raid {enter archway;north} and if you add a delay to the archway then again you would need cubix and portal entrance to the plane...

suppose there isn't really a quickfix for the real problem.
Unknown2006-06-05 23:05:49
You can steal Fae with honeycombs. You don't need to hit anything to clean them out.
ferlas2006-06-05 23:06:56
QUOTE(Fallen @ Jun 6 2006, 12:05 AM) 294567

You can steal Fae with honeycombs. You don't need to hit anything to clean them out.


You do need to hit to fight the daughter/ladies or the aspects or the avatars, or the people.
Ashteru2006-06-05 23:07:22
QUOTE(Fallen @ Jun 5 2006, 11:05 PM) 294567

You can steal Fae with honeycombs. You don't need to hit anything to clean them out.

OR you can kill them and give them to Gorgulu.
Jack2006-06-05 23:07:52
QUOTE(Fallen @ Jun 6 2006, 12:05 AM) 294567

You can steal Fae with honeycombs. You don't need to hit anything to clean them out.

You cannot, however, beat Aspects to death with honeycombs. Sadly. That'd make an awesome deathsight.
Unknown2006-06-05 23:08:43
QUOTE(ferlas @ Jun 5 2006, 04:06 PM) 294569

You do need to hit to fight the daughter/ladies or the aspects or the avatars, or the people.


And a large group of combatants can take out 20 guards. You need a large group of combatants to take out the Supernals/Demon Lords, don't you? So, 20 guards helping Avatar = Demon Lords helping eachother.
Ashteru2006-06-05 23:08:49
QUOTE(Jack @ Jun 5 2006, 11:07 PM) 294571

You cannot, however, beat Aspects to death with honeycombs. Sadly. That'd make an awesome deathsight.

Albion has chocked to sticky, sugary death on a honeycake thrown by Kymir.
Unknown2006-06-05 23:09:46
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Jun 5 2006, 04:07 PM) 294570

OR you can kill them and give them to Gorgulu.


And you can kidnap them with honeycombs, and kill them on Nil.
ferlas2006-06-05 23:10:27
QUOTE(Fallen @ Jun 6 2006, 12:08 AM) 294572

And a large group of combatants can take out 20 guards. You need a large group of combatants to take out the Supernals/Demon Lords, don't you? So, 20 guards helping Avatar = Demon Lords helping eachother.


20 guards will insta kill two people from a 20 man group the instant it starts, 40 guards will wipe out almost any group.
Xavius2006-06-05 23:11:05
Ah, the Aspects. Yes, that'd be a trickier one.

Ok, first, let's get reasonable guard numbers. To be consistently trailed by 20 guards on either of the communes, the commune would either need to spend 11000 power (Serenwilde) or 7500 power (Glomdoring) every day. (Yes, Glomdoring is bigger, but more interconnected.) I choose 20 because that's the most I've ever seen a group of two completely remove. Neither commune produces that sort of power, so that's out of the question. Therefore, it stands to reason that long, drawn out bait methods will eventually wear down the guard population.

The actual act of killing the Aspects would be similar to killing a Supernal, but easier.

So, like I said, distinct but yet equal. The challenge in killing an Aspect would be in taking out the guards. Different strategies. Won't that be fun?