Change to Ethereal

by Estarra

Back to Common Grounds.

Estarra2006-06-04 07:04:51
Actually, the genesis of this came from an idea floating around at one point to have each ethereal (i.e., non-animal) Great Spirit (Lake, Tree, Moon, Night, Sun, etc.) actually be their own aetherbubble. I thought it would be an interesting RP twist--i.e., animal Great Spirits manifest as the actual animal (White Hart and Crow) while ethereal Great Spirits manifest as expressions deep in the aethers.

Unknown2006-06-04 07:06:23
QUOTE(Estarra @ Jun 4 2006, 07:04 AM) 293771

Actually, the genesis of this came from an idea floating around at one point to have each ethereal (i.e., non-animal) Great Spirit (Lake, Tree, Moon, Night, Sun, etc.) actually be their own aetherbubble. I thought it would be an interesting RP twist--i.e., animal Great Spirits manifest as the actual animal (White Hart and Crow) while ethereal Great Spirits manifest as expressions deep in the aethers.

If you remove the Avatars though, what is the point in removing guards and totems in the etherforests? Or is this an alternative?
Estarra2006-06-04 07:09:44
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jun 4 2006, 12:06 AM) 293772

If you remove the Avatars though, what is the point in removing guards and totems in the etherforests? Or is this an alternative?

Alternative.

Another random thought: What if the archways in ethereal Glomdoring and Serenwilde randomly appeared every sunrise instead of being static?
Unknown2006-06-04 07:11:26
So... regular exit by night, archway by day? That would be pretty cool.
Daganev2006-06-04 07:16:18
does nobody remember the whole, standing in guards and hitting the people on the border?

I like the idea of aetherbubbles best with the added skill gained in the totem specializations to go to your greater spirits bubble.

It adds RP, doesn't screw anyone over, and allows most things to stay the same.
Ashteru2006-06-04 07:17:06
Yeah, but it still wouldn't solve the problem. Yeah, you could sprint through, but nothing hinders Glom to put up a totem and some guards in the room where you end sprinting.

Actually, for us normal people, (not with artifacts or the special skills needed Narsrim displayed), it's damn near impossible to raid any ethereal commune. Everyone admits that. I think removing totems and guards would be enough. Maybe if you are enemied to Glomdoring/Serenwilde, the archway will instead of getting you into the ethereal commune right as you access it lead you to some other small, catacomblike thing where you have to fight through before you get into the commune?

But basically, the real reason for the Ethereal Communes not being raided are that they can have statues and totems everywhere, making is impossible to do anything.
Shiri2006-06-04 07:18:16
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jun 4 2006, 08:11 AM) 293778

So... regular exit by night, archway by day? That would be pretty cool.


Doesn't sound like it would alleviate anything, personally.

EDIT: Wait, yes it would, thinking about it wrong. Wendy distracting me. dry.gif
Unknown2006-06-04 07:41:00
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 4 2006, 07:16 AM) 293786

does nobody remember the whole, standing in guards and hitting the people on the border?

No one had a problem with that aside from Visaeras (although I think Xenthos might have supported the notion at some point).

In fact, rereading those same articles it seems that the vast majority were dismissive of the problem until the archways were implemented, at which point there was a large amount of complaining over the new problems. Over the next few weeks _lots_ of people asked for them to be removed.

I'm fairly confident that in this day and age, both communes now have enough common sense to tell their members to either

a) shield;
or
cool.gif move one room out of the way

if there is a group lurking on the border, and its night.

I really quite like Estarra's idea. smile.gif
Daganev2006-06-04 07:53:51
I guess you like the idea of 24/7 fights, with 20 minute breaks every 40 minutes.
Unknown2006-06-04 07:56:15
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 4 2006, 07:53 AM) 293813

I guess you like the idea of 24/7 fights, with 20 minute breaks every 40 minutes.

If guards and totems are still there, sure. I really don't think it would be that bad.
Daganev2006-06-04 07:58:00
You will either have constant fights, or constantly dead fae and avatars.. take your pick.

There was a reason the archways were put in.

Moving the avatars to some place else makes much more sense.
Ashteru2006-06-04 08:05:34
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 4 2006, 07:58 AM) 293816

Moving the avatars to some place else makes much more sense.

It doesn't. closedeyes.gif
Unknown2006-06-04 08:05:47
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 4 2006, 07:58 AM) 293816

There was a reason the archways were put in.


QUOTE(Visaeris Maeloch @ May 26 2005, 07:10 PM) 125027

QUOTE

QUOTE
Malicia's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Malicia razes Nyla's magical shield with a fullered broadsword of blue steel.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:06:59.687>

Malicia whips a exquisitely crafted draconic broadsword through the air in
front of Nyla, to no effect.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:06:59.921>

Malicia takes a long drag off her pipe.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:07:00.171>

Malicia slowly fades into view, returning to the realm of perception.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:07:00.390>

A swarm of giant locusts bubble up from the ground and swarm over Malicia,
their jaws clamping down on her flesh.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:07:00.625>
call for help

You yell, "Help! Help!"
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w lrxk-<12:07:00.968>
ih malicia

With a powerful lunge, Malicia strikes at Nyla with a fullered broadsword of
blue steel. Malicia pricks him in the gut causing him to bleed slightly.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w lrxk-
Number of matching objects: 0 (out of 3 total)
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w lrxk-<12:07:02.453>

With a powerful lunge, Malicia strikes at Nyla with a exquisitely crafted
draconic broadsword. Malicia strikes into his gut, which opens up and pours
blood in a pool at his feet.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w lrxk-<12:07:02.671>
block n

Your action causes the nearly invisible magical shield around you to fade away.
You must regain equilibrium first.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w lrxk-<12:07:03.593>

You have recovered equilibrium.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:07:04.609>

A swarm of giant locusts bubble up from the ground and swarm over Malicia,
their jaws clamping down on her flesh.
3568h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-
A stream of wooden splinters shoots in from the north, peppering you with a
painful barrage of tiny cuts.
2986h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-
A stream of wooden splinters shoots in from the north, peppering you with a
painful barrage of tiny cuts.
2334h, 2884m, 2884e, 0p, 16740en, 13320w elrxk-<12:07:04.765>

Makes it hard to fight when invaders have artillery sitting outside blasting away.


The reason was that people could cudgel/staffcast/throw runes in while not being in enemy territory. Before Glom had guards, or knew how it all worked I guess.

Now that we have org conglutination, Glom has a good guard setup, and Glom has arguably more offensive strength than Serenwilde, does it really matter?
Daganev2006-06-04 08:10:17
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jun 4 2006, 01:05 AM) 293824

Makes it hard to fight when invaders have artillery sitting outside blasting away.
The reason was that people could cudgel/staffcast/throw runes in while not being in enemy territory. Before Glom had guards, or knew how it all worked I guess.

Now that we have org conglutination, Glom has a good guard setup, and Glom has arguably more offensive strength than Serenwilde, does it really matter?


Defintly.. change the game to fit the current players only.. smart!


And Ashteru, it does, because EtherGlom/seren is bascially part of the forest, while cosmic/elmental are not.

Also, maeve always hints at the fact that all the great spirits are part of her so it would make sense for them to manifest where she wants them to.
Ashteru2006-06-04 08:16:18
QUOTE(daganev @ Jun 4 2006, 08:10 AM) 293827

Defintly.. change the game to fit the current players only.. smart!
And Ashteru, it does, because EtherGlom/seren is bascially part of the forest, while cosmic/elmental are not.

Also, maeve always hints at the fact that all the great spirits are part of her so it would make sense for them to manifest where she wants them to.

Yes, Ethereal forests are part of the forest. That's why the avatars/aspects should stay there. It wouldn't really make sense for them to leave it all of a sudden.
Unknown2006-06-04 08:35:18
Let's just stop changing things. Or maybe just remove the archways if you have to do something... that won't really be a change, just a revision.
ferlas2006-06-04 11:27:10
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jun 4 2006, 02:58 AM) 293620

In my opinion,
Pros:
- Greater balance between anti-Wiccan and anti-Guardian quests. The Supernals, Demon lords and Avatars would all be relatively the same difficulty to kill. The greater ease in getting to both ethereal forests might be countered by the greater mobility and demesne benefits that the communes have in etherforests.
- The cities could cause significant harm to either commune, which they haven't been able to as of yet, due to a lack of anti-Commune quests in comparison to anti-City quests.
- Glom/Seren conflict would be far more dynamic and engaging.


First of all I agree with most of it, Make the fae lords equal in strength to the supernals/demon lords.

QUOTE

Cons:
- The Faethorn quests will have to be completely rewritten AGAIN. If there is no real difficulty in getting to either etherforest (crossing the area boundary would mean little), collecting and protecting fae would be next to meaningless. Similarly for the champions.
- Unlike the two cosmic planes, navigating between the etherforests requires only walking. Unless Serenwilde and Glom are pushed into an alliance of necessity, the ethereal plane will be a constant battlezone. Add the fact they are on the same continent, so summoning/teleporting/sporing/etc are all possible where they don't seem to be on the cosmic planes.
- Both Serenwilde and Glomdoring will lose some power generation, but that is probably reasonable.


Secondly this is very easy to solve, make entering the archways take balance just as transversing does.

Make it so guards can only be summoned and placed at the nexus and at the archway.

Create a cubix exit on both ether glomdoring and ether serenwilde. Do all of this and you have both cosmic and ether forests being tricky to get to and completly balanced.

EDIT: This cubix enterance should be at a room that guards can not be placed to make it equal in balance to the cosmic planes.

EDIT: Sorry no I was technically wrong, even if you implement all of my changes the communes still have an advantage over cities due to demenses but I think we can all live with this.

Make it so killing fae that have been converted causes that organisation to lose power in the same way cherubs do as well, seems decent yes?
Unknown2006-06-04 16:53:55
Guido, to adress your point - the Avatars are weaker than Supernals/Demon Lords.

And I have seen them dropped by Mags two or three times before the archways, even though there were guards and the entire area had its totems bonded (now there will be like, 4 up there max probably)

And why i everyone saying "Oh, we can't get in aside from sprint!"

Crow users & Shadowdancers can fly.
Geomancers, Shadowdancers, & Blacktalon can burrow.
Ur'Guard & Nihilists can Ghost.
Nihilists can fly
And lets not forget the trees. And that anyone can technically get a flying mount.

And Daganev, you're wrong in saying that there will be constant warfare, for the simple reason of the new fae => Only certain Serens are all "Argh! kill the Wyrded fae!" most Serens are accepting of the faes choices, as are 99% of the Gloms. What's there to war over?

Mag doesn't raid Celestia 24/7, why would it be any different on Ethereal? There was mass war before because there was a reason. Those reasons have been removed.
Shaeden2006-06-04 18:24:18
QUOTE(Fallen @ Jun 4 2006, 12:53 PM) 293950

Guido, to adress your point - the Avatars are weaker than Supernals/Demon Lords.

Crow users & Shadowdancers can fly.
Geomancers, Shadowdancers, & Blacktalon can burrow.
Nihilists can fly



Celestines can fly...
and can't all nature pleople burrow? Spiritbond groundhog, if I recall?
Xenthos2006-06-04 18:24:46
QUOTE

From: Spirit Warden Xenthos, the Ebon Strategist
To : Everyone
Subj: Ethereal Defence Balancing

Ethereal Serenwilde and Ethereal Glomdoring are fortresses. While it is
rather nice that they are virtually unassailable except by a lone
talented fighter, it is an issue of game balance that needs to be
examined.

The general idea is that we lose guards (and keep the totems). Avatars
would need to be enhanced, as well as the War Shrine power Wrath.
Finally, there would be a new discretionary power that basically give
the trees on Ethereal auto-treebane (a security member of any guild
would be able to activate this). For a bit of power, maybe 100, the
trees don't let any enemies climb up and throw enemies in the branches
to the ground. (Perhaps have it affect the sky as well, though not as
necessary).
--Auto-treebane/skybane (maybe) power ability.
--No guards (Optional: Allow guards at the Nexus, but ONLY if
organizational conglut will still work on the rest of the organization's
Ethereal reflection).
--Avatars buffed.
--Totems remain.
--Top shrine power (Wrath) needs to be enhanced.
--Needs ALL of these bullets enacted.
@An Aside:
--This is something that may have been overlooked when archways were
introduced and dreamweavers were allowed to enter certain things. Ghosts
and souls cannot enter those same things. This isn't an addition to the
proposal, it's something that causes me additional concern if no extra
limits are placed on ghosting in EthSeren or EthGlom, but if it's
supposed to happen and was just overlooked, it needed to be pointed out.

Penned by my hand on the 9th of Shanthin, in the year 146 CE.

Since then, I've learned a few more things. Apparently the ONLY way to remove guards is to flag the terrain as not being Glomdoring territory, which would remove the conglutination for Commune's members as well as not allowing totems anywhere else (and this proposal neglected to mention the power issue from totems, which would likely need to be halved should it be instituted exactly as stated above).

I then proposed making it so *no* guards could be summoned off-Prime, but then make the off-Prime nexii peaced for all non-Org members (so a Celestian couldn't attack anybody at the Ethereal Moonhart, Glomdoring can't attack at the Megalith on Earth or Nil, but defenders can push invaders out of that area). Obviously, Astral would be exempt from this. This was turned down on the basis of having "too many safe areas already."

There are obviously issues with it, and I really don't like the thought of 24/7 raids, but there IS a balance issue here, and the guards are the main part of that issue. Simply removing them isn't going to work however, in my opinion.