Richter2006-07-05 23:42:23
It irks me when a politician cannot put forth a single rational thought in a paragraph.
Verithrax2006-07-06 00:03:52
QUOTE(roark @ Jul 5 2006, 07:03 PM) 305069
There are four things I've not seen discussed by the politicians in this dispute, neither refuted by its supporters nor used as talking points by those opposing net neutrality.
1) If my ISP sends the cost of bandwidth over to Google and my ISP has to compete with other ISPs, it may give them a competative opportunity to cut my rates with Google picking up the difference. So it could mean lower rates for me. IE - It shifts some of the bandwidth costs from the consumer to Google and Micro$oft.
The issue here is that most carriers live in an oligopoly or monopoly environment where there is no real competition to keep them from charging both the content providers and the content receivers. Also, they are free to charge whatever they want from Google, regardless of how much actual traffic Google originates. Regulation is necessary because the telecom companies don't live in a real free market.
2) The primary people fighting for net neutrality are not people nor even small business but rather gigantic multi-billion dollar corporations like Micro$oft, Google, eBay, etc. Using the "follow the money" logic, that implies that those companies are the ones who will be footing most of the bill if net neutrality does not get enacted. The whole thing smells to me like a scam to line the pockets of the big corporations by scaring consumers into thinking that those big corporations are on their side. It is worth noting that a large amount of government regulation of business, possibly even most of it, is supported by business. For example, domestic gun makers supported gun control in the 20th century because it made it harder to import firearms (ie-their foreign competition was partially shut down). Cable companies lobbied when they got started for regulated government protected local monopolies figuring that it's better to be a monopoly even if you are regulated than to worry about competitors out-inovating you. Another common reason large businesses like Google and Micro$oft support government regulation of industry is because they know it will make it harder for small business (like Lusternia!) to compete in the market. Whenever any company lobbies for regulation of the industry, this should be an immediate red flag: it is without fail always for alterior reasons, never because they care about you.
That's not true - Google and Microsoft are cited as supporters of net neutrality because they're high profile. But the savetheinternet.com campaign is supported by several companies of all sizes, and every single major consumer protection association in the US. Net neutrality would create an even playing field for everyone. A tiered internet would allow Google or MSN to fight over who has faster access - Regardless of what consumers want. It would similarly allow WoW to pay in order to be faster than other similar MMOs. And nothing is stopping the telcos from charging nearly everyone something.
While no one who knows me well would consider me a leftist nor a conservative, that paragraph does sound pretty lefty. Yet most of the support for net neutrality comes from the left. I find it ironic that leftists are the ones behind this! Basically some fairly unregulated big multi-billion dollar trans-national corporations have used vague egalitarian utopian buzzwords to slander other less big and more heavily regulated corporations. The end result is it feels like Micro$oft and Google are supporting the little guy even though it's probably just the opposite. To those politicians on the left: do you realize you are doing Micro$oft's bidding for the interest of their profit?
The telcos were created by the government in an artificial environment where they suffer no competition whatsoever. That's why they have to be regulated; there's no real free market to keep them in check. And speaking of free markets, since when is the left supposed to support deregulation?
3) Some technologies may be stifled by this. For example, if your IP packet will cost the same amount to deliver regardless of if it is high or low priority and no matter what its size and how many routes it hops through... What incentive is there to develop technology for flagging your most important packets as higher priority than low packets? To develop smarter routing software that finds the most cost effective, efficient route? Or to develop software that uses less bandwidth chatter or compresses data on a wire better? All of that would be a benefit for consumers. There may be some nominal incentive to develop those technologies, but a fiscal incentive would very likely take things further.
There's nothing wrong with discriminating packages based on service - The reason net neutrality is called for is that telcos are planning on discriminating based on origin or destination.
4) Spammers consume insane amounts of bandwidth. Would not having net neutrality make sending spam much more expensive for the spammers?? If so, I'm 100% against net neutrality. Spammers need to die die die die die!!!!
Not at all. Spam hasn't been stopped by the current policy (Spam generating hosts are blacklisted and people stop peering to them). It wouldn't be stopped by a policy that may or may not slow down the messages they send from arriving to a consumer's mail servers (Which, by the way, are almost always completely unrelated to the consumer and located elsewhere. Spammers wouldn't need to pay, unless the telcos start arbitrarily dropping packets that don't pay - for everyone who sends smtp or pop packets through their network, of course, not just spamemers). If anything, this would make getting your email from smaller webmail services (That aren't paying their protection fee) slower.
Unknown2006-07-06 00:12:54
QUOTE
The issue here is that most carriers live in an oligopoly or monopoly environment where there is no real competition to keep them from charging both the content providers and the content receivers. Also, they are free to charge whatever they want from Google, regardless of how much actual traffic Google originates. Regulation is necessary because the telecom companies don't live in a real free market.
For Australia, that's totall true. We have one company that owns all the physical lines, wires, fibres, whatever you want to call it. All of them. The company was originally 100% owned by the people/government, but as of now the government is trying to sell off its last controlling share and hand it totally over to the private market. Not a situation I'd like to see.
Verithrax2006-07-06 00:29:29
Here too. In São Paulo, you have broadband access through ADSL (Owned by the phone company) or cable (Not avaliable everywhere). If you're really lucky, you might live near a small DSL carrier. Although there are several ISPs, they all use the telephone company as a carrier.
Daganev2006-07-06 00:49:04
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Jul 5 2006, 04:34 PM) 305105
Politicians are usually briefed on probable questions though and have a fairly good rundown of what needs to be said. I'd hate to see Question Time (the time in parliament over here in Aus where people throw questions back and forth across the Floor of Parliament) where politicians answered off the cuff.
I understand the message he is trying to portray and I'm not even attempting to address the argument at all, just the failings of the politician. I know that is a fallacy in critical thought and argument, but it irks me when a politician fails to communicate a message.
Oh well thats just niave then.
He's been speaking like this for the past, what? 40 years now?
Unknown2006-07-06 01:00:53
QUOTE(daganev @ Jul 6 2006, 10:49 AM) 305118
Oh well thats just niave then.
He's been speaking like this for the past, what? 40 years now?
It's naive for me to expect a politician to be able to communicate his or her message clearly? There aren't many other professions where I would consider communication to be a higher priority. The people of his generation might understand him, that's fine, but he represents more than just retirees. Even if I don't agree with a politican I expect them to be able to string a coherant argument together.
Shamarah2006-07-06 01:16:24
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Jul 5 2006, 09:00 PM) 305119
It's naive for me to expect a politician to be able to communicate his or her message clearly? There aren't many other professions where I would consider communication to be a higher priority. The people of his generation might understand him, that's fine, but he represents more than just retirees. Even if I don't agree with a politican I expect them to be able to string a coherant argument together.
Agreed. If he's too old to be able to get his point across and speak well, he's too old to be in politics.
Richter2006-07-06 16:21:12
And how many people do you know, that are that old, and have any kind of grasp of modern electronics/etc.?
Hazar2006-07-06 16:36:27
Hey, he doesn't need to do anything - he's a Republican from Alaska. Some years the Democrats don't even field candidates up there. I don't think they've ever won that Senate seat. Maybe a few of the House seats.
And the biggest problem with voting against Microsoft, Google, savetheinternet & co. is the discrimination. Let's take, for instance, a situation where you have two forum services; one is run with no use-fee, with some minor advertising to cover server costs. The other is a big corporate subscription model. Since it's cheaper to use the free system, more people use it. But instead of lowering it's prices to reflect a market reality, the other forum instead pays Comcast, At&T, and the other service companies to make it's service much, much faster than the other forum. That jacks up prices for everyone. Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad.
To sum up my support for net neutrality; net neutrality allows the internet to remain a free-thought zone, a device for the free exchange of ideas, rather than choking it off and having it shrivel into yet another corporate playground that's too expensive for anyone in the lower middle class or below.
And the biggest problem with voting against Microsoft, Google, savetheinternet & co. is the discrimination. Let's take, for instance, a situation where you have two forum services; one is run with no use-fee, with some minor advertising to cover server costs. The other is a big corporate subscription model. Since it's cheaper to use the free system, more people use it. But instead of lowering it's prices to reflect a market reality, the other forum instead pays Comcast, At&T, and the other service companies to make it's service much, much faster than the other forum. That jacks up prices for everyone. Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad.
To sum up my support for net neutrality; net neutrality allows the internet to remain a free-thought zone, a device for the free exchange of ideas, rather than choking it off and having it shrivel into yet another corporate playground that's too expensive for anyone in the lower middle class or below.
Daganev2006-07-06 16:44:00
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Jul 5 2006, 06:00 PM) 305119
It's naive for me to expect a politician to be able to communicate his or her message clearly? There aren't many other professions where I would consider communication to be a higher priority. The people of his generation might understand him, that's fine, but he represents more than just retirees. Even if I don't agree with a politican I expect them to be able to string a coherant argument together.
Yes...
Just look at Joe Biden, Byrd, Thurmen when he was around. If you watch senate meetings (sadly I do) you might be impressed with how many of those people can't string a sentence together, let alone an argument where they know what they are talking about.
I agree that senators and the like -should- be able to that, however I think its naive to think that all of them do.
QUOTE(Hazar @ Jul 6 2006, 09:36 AM) 305240
rather than choking it off and having it shrivel into yet another corporate playground that's too expensive for anyone in the lower middle class or below.
You mean the same way TV, Radio, and the Telephones are a coporate playground?
Sylphas2006-07-06 18:10:20
QUOTE(daganev @ Jul 6 2006, 12:44 PM) 305245
You mean the same way TV, Radio, and the Telephones are a coporate playground?
Is this sarcasm?
Hazar2006-07-06 18:13:45
TV and Telephones? Yes. Radio? No. When was the last time you saw someone broadcasting a TV show out of their basement? That's what dissapears when net neutrality dissapears; the little people who can't afford to pay the extra fees. People like, say, bloggers, or the guy who runs Seventh Sanctum. I shouldn't need a corporate sponsorship to have my own website.
EDIT:
Also, you missed out on the real point of that sentance. The expense. Television and telephones are dramatically less useful the poorer you are. It's bad enough that there's differences between dial-up and DSL, and again between DSL and cable, without the poor being cut completely out of the picture.
EDIT:
Also, you missed out on the real point of that sentance. The expense. Television and telephones are dramatically less useful the poorer you are. It's bad enough that there's differences between dial-up and DSL, and again between DSL and cable, without the poor being cut completely out of the picture.
Daganev2006-07-06 19:56:03
QUOTE(Hazar @ Jul 6 2006, 11:13 AM) 305262
TV and Telephones? Yes. Radio? No. When was the last time you saw someone broadcasting a TV show out of their basement? That's what dissapears when net neutrality dissapears; the little people who can't afford to pay the extra fees. People like, say, bloggers, or the guy who runs Seventh Sanctum. I shouldn't need a corporate sponsorship to have my own website.
EDIT:
Also, you missed out on the real point of that sentance. The expense. Television and telephones are dramatically less useful the poorer you are. It's bad enough that there's differences between dial-up and DSL, and again between DSL and cable, without the poor being cut completely out of the picture.
I've actually seen more TV shows run out of basements than I have heard of radio shows. We have a special channel in my area called "public access TV", but Radio, I only hear coorprate stations.
Xavius2006-07-06 20:11:19
QUOTE(daganev @ Jul 6 2006, 02:56 PM) 305286
I've actually seen more TV shows run out of basements than I have heard of radio shows. We have a special channel in my area called "public access TV", but Radio, I only hear coorprate stations.
Public access TV is a gimmick to fulfill government requirements to broadcast a certain amount of educational and public-service programming. If you stuff it all onto one channel, no one has to bother with it.
But...yeah. While the cost of entry into radio isn't all that high, it's not something that a lone college undergrad decides to pick up one day. As a result, most radio stations are corporately owned, often with two or three corporations controlling all but a handful of the dozens of frequencies (outside of the public range) in a city. If you want to get your voice out, you buy yourself 2 min of airtime (it's cheap!), not a whole tower of your own.
Daganev2006-07-06 22:08:16
http://ebaystrategies.blogs.com/ebay_strat...bans_googl.html
Interesting.. E-bay and "Net neutrality" vs Google.
Interesting.. E-bay and "Net neutrality" vs Google.
Roark2006-07-06 23:44:30
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Jul 5 2006, 08:12 PM) 305115
For Australia, that's totall true. We have one company that owns all the physical lines, wires, fibres, whatever you want to call it. All of them. The company was originally 100% owned by the people/government, but as of now the government is trying to sell off its last controlling share and hand it totally over to the private market. Not a situation I'd like to see.
It's a little different in America. Private industry created all the infrastructure, but they then unfortunately successfully lobbied the government for monopoly protection. The argument was that it was against the public interest to have 10 sets of phone lines or 10 sets of cable lines competing in a neighborhood due to the physical clutter. (Another case of corporate lobby for regulation pretending to be in the public interest.) There is usually one company in an area that gets the monopoly, but across the nation there are several companies for these services. They just are barred by law from treading on each other's territory.
Fortunately this is ending for phones and cable television. Cell phones and satelite TV of course help. But now cable companies are rolling out VOIP and phone companies are working on delivering TV through the phone lines. Those with electrical broadband can even get telephone over their power lines, and with Apple working and TV through iTunes, television may soon be possible through the power lines. All that is pretty cool to me! I see lots of interesting technology in these areas. This is also an example of industry lobbying for regulation. The telcos are trying to get the cable and power companies stuck with the same regulations that the phone companies have to help stifle their competition and preserve their monopolies. The consumer advocacy groups will probably get behind that as well. That's I guess my main message: whenever you see any business lobbying for government regulation, it is never ever for the public interest, but for corporate power and profit. That makes me *extremely* wary.
Fortunetaly, the net could be ruled by competition even with the net neutrality thing not existing, and this cracking monopoly dovetails helps in that area. For example, SBC DSL does not have the power to charge Google whatever it wants. If SBC jacks up their rates to insane highs for bandwidth coming from Google then Google will only pay up if SBC has lots of customers thus, making it worthwhile for Google. The only way SBC can have lots of customers is if they undercut the competition's price for DSL service. Is SBC does not keep the consumer rates low then they will lose customers to other providers and Google will just not pay SBC since it would have no interest in SBC's lack of value to Google, and SBC gets screwed in the end (as well as the idiots who don't switch ISPs, but that's what they get for not shopping around). SBC DSL thus has to lower one side of teh equation in order to raise rates on the other side. So with the telco monopoly is cracking despite the government's best efforts to keep them alive, I feel pretty good that bandwidth charges to server bandwidth hogs will in the end help bring down rates for DSL access.
It's also worth noting that Google, Micro$oft, and eBay are pretty hypocritical when it comes to neutrality. Micro$oft opposes OS neutrality, whereby all applications run equally well on Windows. Google is a veritable search engin monopoly and has threatened to sue telcos for being monopolies if net neutrality fails. And eBay, as mentioned previously, bans all payment methods that compete with their PayPal, thus they oppose payment neutrality.
Unknown2006-07-07 03:15:26
QUOTE(daganev @ Jul 7 2006, 02:44 AM) 305245
Yes...
Just look at Joe Biden, Byrd, Thurmen when he was around. If you watch senate meetings (sadly I do) you might be impressed with how many of those people can't string a sentence together, let alone an argument where they know what they are talking about,
Well I must hold politicians to a high standard comapared to the US, then. I don't like a great lot of Australia's politicians, but I've never seen a Question Time where one could not articulate and communicate.
Sylphas2006-07-07 05:55:44
Roark, I truly don't care if I get cheaper internet access from it. If you make content providers pay more, instead of content consumers, you end up vastly restricting who can provide content.
Daganev2006-07-07 06:37:47
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Jul 6 2006, 10:55 PM) 305380
Roark, I truly don't care if I get cheaper internet access from it. If you make content providers pay more, instead of content consumers, you end up vastly restricting who can provide content.
If you make consumers pay more instead of content providers you end up vastly restricting who can access content...
Whats more important, having 10 billion books that only 1000 people can read, or having 1000 books that 10 billion people can read?
Morik2006-07-07 07:08:34
actually; you'd be surprised how much of the internet traffic is spam and port scans.
Just as a random data point: the Australian University network AARNet has a link from Australia to the US. They then connect to a number of people in the US so Australian Universities get nice, fast, shiny access.
If I correctly parsed what the guy said to me a few months ago; they're filtering ~50% of the traffic away before it comes from the US to Australian universities - its all port scans and exploit attempts. Ie, 50% of the traffic from the US to Australian universities is ~ port scan and exploit attempts.
Thats a lot of traffic.
The internet would run much smoother if people (ie internet transit providers) would just keep their houses tidy and required their tenants to.
Just as a random data point: the Australian University network AARNet has a link from Australia to the US. They then connect to a number of people in the US so Australian Universities get nice, fast, shiny access.
If I correctly parsed what the guy said to me a few months ago; they're filtering ~50% of the traffic away before it comes from the US to Australian universities - its all port scans and exploit attempts. Ie, 50% of the traffic from the US to Australian universities is ~ port scan and exploit attempts.
Thats a lot of traffic.
The internet would run much smoother if people (ie internet transit providers) would just keep their houses tidy and required their tenants to.