Don't **** with those Jews, man. Don't even think about it. *sagenod*

How historically Ironic.

What a terrible situation, for both sides. I hope you are safe from this escalating war, Daganev.

Personally, I will never understand why people think that reacting to terrorism with even more deadly terrorism is a good solution.

If you don't want people to hate you enough to join a terrorist cell, DON'T DESTROY THEIR COUNTRY.

Destroying missle launchers so they can't be launched at your (civilian) citizens is not terrorism.

I think something that most people don't understand, because it is not well explained, is that many times, Terrorist groups will launch thier rockets from inside of schools, and hospitals, or just plain appartment complexes.

As someone asked on a blog I was reading: If Napolean tied babies to his cannons, are those cannons now invalid targets? (Ok, he didn't use Napolean, he used another person who tried to take over Europe, but I hate Nazi analogies)

I agree with Daga- ###YOU HAVE CAUSED AN UNTRAPPED ERROR IN THE CODE!! PLEASE REPORT THIS AND DO NOT TRY THE COMMAND AGAIN!###

Were you paying attention in school on the days they went over the past examples of sanctioning against countries, and covered just how well those individual events went?

I think what you fail to realise or, at the least, accept, is that the Israel is surrounded by organisations whose founding articles(i.e. constitutions and what have you) involve the complete destruction of their state and the murder of their citizens. Their neighbors, in addition to seeking to see them destroyed, do not recognise them as a sovereign nation and continually attack them.

Israel's only option in light of such attacks/kidnappings is to respond with overwhelming force as a detriment. Should they fail to do so, the floodgates open, and the attacks really begin. Preemption is the only doctrine that will keep Israel alive.

So to answer your question... Yes, Lebanon is a sovereign nation. But so is Israel. Israelis have certain rights, and that includes the right to life, and it is the job of the government to defend those rights. Violently, if needbe.

Kick some ass Israel

Your assumption is that people do not already hate you enough to do that. The calculus of what is a reasonable response and what is not, is quite different, when they do.

Israel lives with the fallout of many mistakes it has made over the years, but things that are weaker than the conditions of their environment are destroyed. I can't fault Israel for believing that as well.

This situation is not just about Israel and Lebanon.

EDIT: by Visaeris

You're right. It's about the inherent problems in the western view of Israel verseus the middle eastern form of Israel; the west believes Israel has a right to exist, a haven from the Holocaust and anti-semitism, and that any further provocation is the fault of the Arab countries. Arab countries, on the other hand, still see Israel as a glorified military camp shoved on them by the west.

I am curious...

Are people aware of the way that Iran, Iraq, Morroco, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Egypt, Jordan, England, and a host of of other countries have taken Jews out of thier homes which they might have lived in for 3 or 4 generations, and just booted them out?

Are people aware that every house that Israelis currently live in were bought and paid for, and not "taken." The way Israel was "settled" was by either buying propety from the people who previously owned it, or buy building new communities in lands that were not being used. Most of which was swamp that had to be drained.

The return of Jews to Israel, and the political establishment of a Jewish State started in the 1850's, not in 1945.

Here is just a tidbit of what happened in 1929 according to Wikipedia.

1929 Palestine riots
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In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem became steadily more violent, erupting in a week of riots in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs); 116 Arabs were killed and 232 wounded (mostly by British-commanded police and soldiers).


The only point I'm trying to make here, is that the statement that Israel only exists as some western push for a military base after the Holocaust, and that Arabs only hate Israel because they think its a western Colonizing force, is just BS.

Since 1948, its been mostly European Jews who are in Israel, but during the 1800's and on, and LONG before then as well, it was mostly African and Middleastern Jews, who the Arabs were fighting.

The inherent flaw in everyone's arguments, unfortunately, is the fact that you are all trying to prove a certain side to be in the right.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is, in such complex conflicts, there rarely is a right or a wrong.

Each side's actions, in some form or another, may be justifiable and unjustifiable.

What we must ask ourselves is- who is the lesser evil?

It would be nice, if there was actually a debate based on fact.

For example, Sharon is called a murder. Why is he called a murderer? Because when he was in control of Area B, a group of people C killed a group of people B. That makes him a bad Guardian, not a murderer.

It would also be nice if the same standards of operation were given to both sides of the argument.

Jordan currently has Palestians rounded up in "refugee" camps, because the Palestianians tried to assiate the King of Jordan. Jordan however is not asked to create a Palestian state on the east side of teh Jordan, where the palistians historically lived. They arn't even asked by the Palestians for that.


Yesterday, Hezbulah denied ever attacking Israel, they claim the soldiers that were kidnapped, entered Lebanon.

Tidings. To be absolutly honest, I wat awaiting for something like this to come...

For starters, I too was recently discharged from service of three years in the IDF- the mandatory time of service. I was a tank commander, if it interesets anyone.

Now, the first post... all I have to say is wow. I don't mind discussing, I truly don't... but to presume you know everything and lay down your judgement in a manner that is outright offensive?. People died, and die, on both sides. The -least- you could do is -try- to understand why things happened as they did and take into consideration that, believe it or not, there are two sides to all coins.

Regardless, I would be more then happy to discuss the issue, but in a manner that allows a two-way communication. It never goes well in forums and the last thing I want to do is offend or be offended.

Be well, all of you, regardless of your beliefs

-ah and Medderach, I have to resent that last comment of yours. Who said it was your right to judge either nation? you lived here? I doubt it. "What we must ask ourselves"- this is not a court, and you are not the judge.

Ok, so the anti-Israeli sentiment is growing over here, and I'm having serious issues understanding it.

We can't really talk about this in the context of two weeks. This is a war that has been going on since, oh, 1950-something. The last two weeks are just skirmish number 31314127. So, keeping in mind that this isn't an isolated incident (on either side):

Lebanese terrorists (ok, granted, Iranian-sponsored Lebanese terrorists) launch rockets into Israel.

Israel ignores it.

Lebanese terrorists launch rockets into Israel.

Israel calls up the legitimate Lebanese government and tells them to handle the issue domestically.

Lebanese terrorists launch rockets into Israel.

Israel calls up Lebanon and issues a set of demands for their own safety (basically, escort the terrorists away from the border.)

Lebanese terrorists launch rockets into Israel.

Israel bombs structures that are believed to hold said Lebanese terrorists.

{Begin international backlash}

Lebanese terrorists launch rockets into Israel (yes, still).

Israel runs another bombing campaign and issues final ultimatum to Lebanon.

Lebanese terrorists launch rockets into Israel.

Israel tears down the border fence and threatens full-scale invasion with ground troops if Lebanese police cannot get the situation under control.

Lebanese terrorists launch rockets into Israel, probably lobbing them over a few Israeli tanks to hit their mark.

Israeli troops show up.

-----



You're left with either 1) a country that secretly supports the aggression, or 2) a country that has lost control of military primacy within its borders, and by some standards, lost sovereignty.

At what point do you concede that this is a just cause?

When has Israel ever been in the news with a sense of pro-Israeli sentiment?

Maybe once in 1948, for about 3 days.

The world can be pro Israel/pro Jew for more than 2 weeks, it starts to hurt thier history gene.


Actually, as I look into this, Israel and the Jewish people have always been self criticizing. Most other people arn't publicly self critical and so if there is a hint of criticism they assume it must mean there is a lot of reason to crticise.. or something like that. I don't see many anit Israel blogs asking what the Israelis or Jews think, but I see lots of pro Israel blogs linking to arab blogs and asking what the others are thinking and how we can help them.

Israel never threatened with a full-scale invasion. Israel does not intend to have a full scale invasion. The voices against re-entering the "Mud of Lebanon" (Not ranked on TMS), are overwhelming - The concessus about it is very strong from all sides of the political arc.

But,

No war, or operation, or anything you want to do, espcially when you do it against guerilla forces, can be won with air-raids alone. A village just on our borders turned out to be a huge store of ammunition. We can't bomb that, we need to come in and clear it out of their warriors and their weapon stocks, wherever they managed to stockpile them.

Scary. We agree. You have said near everything I wanted to.

Israel has 0 choice but to respond with such an overwhelming response - they cannot take chances here, people. Check a map. Compare Israel to... Say... Syria. Yea. Now compare Israel to Iran. Palistine? Egypt? Mhm. Not a very big country, is it?

Now, as to the Lebanese deaths - it's a terrible thing, war. However, their bomings tend to be tactical in nature, and though their targets might appear to be civilian in nature, often times they aren't - the mosque they struck in an air raid attempting to kill Hesbollah's leader a week or so ago (I think it was a week ago today, actually, or a week ago yesterday) - the mosque continued exploding for nearly a half hour from the munitions inside.

If anyone is to blame, it is Lebanon's government - their failure to disarm Hezbollah, to allow them to so take over the government, their failure to remove this terrorist organization from what is essentially a marshal grip on Lebanon's southern parts.

Israel is much more reserved than I - I'd not have screwed around so much with the "tactical bombings". I'd have ensured every road, power station, and port was decimated in the entire country, before dropping a hundred or so troops in their capitol, taking their prime minister, his cabinet, and dragging them all back to Israel to be tried in some BS trial for war crimes, where they all would be promptly executed. Then I'd essentially raze what is now Beirut.

At any rate - for the first time ever, I approve of Bush for a few brief moments. When some UN members tried to push a "knock it off, Israel" through the security council, the US whipped out it's veto and slapped it on, essentially killing the bill.

Oh, to bring my wandering mind back to the dead civilians, which actually totals to more than 300 Lebanese dead - majority of them were most likely Hezbollah. Even when Israel is waving the CORPSES of ARMED HEZBOLLAH MILITANTS Hezbollah is like "Yea no not ours. They're civilians!" Anything to ensure the monsters of David are seen for what barbaric disgusting creatures they are, right?

Go Israel. Beautiful country, besides. Was there for a few weeks, a month or so ago.

I actually agree with you.

But stop being so self-pitying.

There is no self pity. Actually, to me is a re-affirmation of the divinity of the Bible.

It gives me strength to know that things are going well. Its when the world supports Israel that I begin to worry.