The ten suspect limit needs to go. It was a bad idea from the start. Just imagining having to fight a war with such a limitation in place is quite depressing.

That is what I was going to say. I think the best way to go to war is by attacking the interests of the nation, instead of trying to do a continued assault on home territory.

Having no shrines to offer to save the fulcrux can be really annoying, also, you can claim dominance by having your shrines in thier territory even.


Imagine celest sticking up shrines of Terentia in Serenwilde and continously expanding it, and then killing the serens when they try to go to astral or aetherspace to get corpses and esteem.

I only seem to be posting when the mood swings take me to "bitch" mode. Gah, this male PMS is annoying. I need to close the forum window or something x_x

I second that.

What I don't understand is this.

If you're willing to have a war, simply don't call vengance on anyone.

Simple effort. Just refuse to use Avenger in a strategic manner. If you realize that you're being raided, refrain from using avenger and karma.

If you're minding your own business in your manse and get jumped, use those options.

Tully that is a extremely naive statement, people will use any tool at that deposal to achieve victory. That's simply a fact of life and expecting them to do otherwise is a folly to say the least.

Yeah, like everyone's going to follow that

It's not totally naive, it's just how the system was intended.

I kinda understand what you are saying, but how is it different from using self-control and not exploiting a bug, for instance, or how most people return a fallen item such as armor and weapons?

I'm sure that's how the admin intended it to be used. Whether or not a different protection should be put into place is not something I can answer.

Problem is if you remove the 10 suspect limit, then it'll go back to when people had 20+ suspects and would kill for the heck of it since karma curses are pansies. Shiribot could fetch one of those old posts of people bragging about their huge suspect lists.

Except if people had 20 suspects they'd be crippled into undeath, since it would only cost 5 Karma to cost them, and 80-95 Karma per curse for the target to remove them.

Or they could just wait out the curse. Nature curse anyone? You shouldn't even be killing that many people anyways.

I don't think wars are ment to be focsed on "home territory"

There are means to attack villages, without gaining suspsect.

There are means to cripple a nation without gaining suspect. Unless there is some mechanics that prevents shrines from being built in enemy territory, but I don't remember that being the case.

I see no problem with high suspect counts, especially during times of war. But then again I'm of the opinion that when it comes to conflict the game has been on a downward trend. Nor do I agree with Tully's assumption that the Avenger was put in just as a virtual threat, it was put in to be used, so people will use it whenever possible.

because it's not a bug that's how the mechanic is so people will use it...pretty simple

The problem with shrines, Daganev, is that you have to declare to attack anyone defiling a shrine, even if you're in the order. At some point you either turn off pk careful and get vengeanced and peaced, or you just let him do it. You have to hope you have more decent fighters in your order than the amount of times he is willing to die, and hope that people who don't have suspect are available when you need them.

so what exactly do you expect people to do? ban there ciizens from using avenger? i dont see celest kicking people out because they call the avenger nor do i think serenwilde would do the same so over all that is a pretty useless suggestion. no one will go along with that agreement and the few who do agree will be the ones being forced to pray due to the avenger

Tully is not saying make anyone do anything! He is saying if you want to have a War that both sides can enjoy, then both sides should have a War with each other, instead of using the Avenger. Some one kills you twice? Kill them back! Don't use the Avenger. It is a good idea, and I do not use the Avenger system myself, I think it is pansy bullshit, I'm a big girl and I can handle myself. Unfortunetely it is impossible for most people to stop using the Avenger, give a kid a bat and you'll be hard pressed to get him to stop swinging it.

Lets say your an eight year old, you get a stick and hit some kid over the head with it, bad move. He calls his mother and tells her to take care of you. She does. Instead! If the kid you hit had some balls he would instead find a bigger stick and hit you over the head with it. Then you continue to hit eachother over the head and have plently of fun. No Moms necessary.

Naturally this only really works for fighters. Non-fighters and novices have good reason to use the Avenger if they wish.

Below Silimaur is using an example I had before with Tuek and Sham, the kid one is better. Sorry Sili.

tuek would go use avenger then kill sham

Well thats becuase most people simply want to hurt each other anyway they can instead of actaully fighting with some semblence of honour. I could expect that from most IC characters, but I think we are talking more OOC here.

Oh well!

Eventually, one kid or the other decides they've had enough head trauma, and call Mom anyway. Mom thrashes whoever didn't run away crying first, and then has them grounded for the entire month. The kid who ran crying now goes about his business of hitting other kids with sticks, stopping occasionally to point and laugh at the kid who acted like a man who is now locked indoors and staring bitterly out the window.

Sorry, there's just no incentive to play fair in battles like the one going on right now. Can you honestly tell me that simple distaste will outweigh the very tangible benefit of having one of the enemy's power combatants locked out of battle for however long the peace thing lasts?

Your best bet is to find where Roark lives and chain him to his computer until he's finished coding some rules for declaring war and immunity to the Avenger system... or make him axe the Avenger system entirely. Unless it's written into the system, there's no way in hell people are going to play fair.