I just think that Tracking should be fully available to rogues. Its stupid that its not. The rest of the rogues should know what they're getting into.

And Zacc, the argument that "Well, we know the skills! Why can't we use them!" its because you're no longer linked to the Nexus. Lusternia has the perfect IC reason why you can't use your skills, and that's why they don't force you to forget them.

But yeah, Trackers... it just doesn't make sense for their animal to stay loyal, but start disobeying advanced commands.

Ummm do note that some skills like summoning of angels need you to be linked to an org with a specific pool power. So an ex Celestine CANNOT summon angels, ress, sacrifice if he or she is not part of Celest anymore despite having the skills.

Points:
1) If you abandon the guild devoted to the Supernals of Celestia, and then abandon the city that is based off their teachings, why should you be able to summon an Angel from them? Most skills make sense for the same reasoning altered a little (As said before, why can you summon an "ethereal forest" if you no longer are even linked with the ethereal plane?).
2) I guess we should eliminate all conflict... because with every conflict situation, there will be some people who dont agree with it. And we don't want to force them into something they don't agree with, do we?
2) Oh yeah, and you forget that even if you don't agree with it, you were still in the minority for that referendum. Tough Luck
3) Yes, the cities/communes are dramaticly different. Thats part of the appeal of the game. Next?
4) I'm pro-Rogue, yet anti rogues getting skills. Part of being a rogue is being treated unfairly. You just ned to accept that - just cause you don't like it wont make hte game change for you.
5) Yeah, this is a buisness - they want to please as many people as they can.
6) Ok - you learn druidry. Ok - the commune gives you a ton of powers! Woo! Now, you don't need the commune? Well, then you don't need the communes gifts, either. Seeyah.
7) Ok, the ab file is wrong, that sucks. Bummer, but nothing I can do about that. I think they are supposed to say Commune power, rather than any power... but thats just my guess.

If that was aimed at me, because I was the only person who has mentioned that specific skill so far... yes, that is my point.

And Zacc, why do you think Whitehart should allow you to use the skills he has granted you from your dedication to him when you have quit the guild and commune? From and OOC and/or IC perspective?

The argument "I learn something, I leave, why should I suddenly forget it" doesn't fly. Say I learn how to dreamweave, then decide I'll be a warrior - I suddenly forget all that I've learned... just because I'm no longer a druid. Say I change organizations, I have no choice but to completely forget every shred of the skills I've spent years mastering. I find that it often makes more sense to look at skills less as 'practicing something until you know how to do it' and more as 'alignment with a certain nexus of power, or spiritual forces, opening one's mind to certain powers and magics'.

I'm not driving away anyone, nor trying to impose any RP. I don't even interact with any rogues in game, let alone demand anything from them. I haven't asked anyone to leave Serenwilde, and I didn't even vote for or against the war. If you want to play a Seren with different views to the majority, what's stopping you? No-one gets ostracized for disagreeing, or for voicing their opinion respectfully. No-one is ostracized for trying to argue for a different approach to things.

I'm also not whining this time. I was pointing out how lucky rogues have it, even though they might not realize. If it were up to me it would be different, that's for sure. I don't really mind the rogues we have in game now... I'm pretty sure we only have very few that actually keep their skills and then go to another organization.
Again, I'm not anti-rogue. If you want to be a character that has loyalty to nothing but themselves or their own agenda, go for it. If you want to be loyal to an idea that isn't covered in any of the four organizations... go for it. (If you want to bring diversity to an organization - don't go rogue, obviously.)

What I don't like is those outside an organization having organizational skills. Why should an army of Glomdoring fighting against Serenwilde have characters that can call upon ancestor spirits or wear the mantle of Stag? Why should an army of Magnagorans be blessed by benedictions and the support of angels aiding the fight against the Supernals?

I do want to keep all the skills within the places they are supposed to be, because that encourages better RP. The Hartstone Druids are the only ones who know enough (at this point) to work with the forests and call the wilderness to aid them - that guild has responsibility for using those skills wisely and for taking their place in the commune. I really wish it wasn't anyone that's ever been Hartstone has those skills, whether they put them to work for Serenwilde, Glomdoring, Magnagora or even Celest. The same goes for any of the mystical guilds.
I don't really understand this. You're forced to forget skills when you change guilds. Is that a cheap way of evading RP? I'm not sure how Nihilists wielding the natural rites of ecology in soothing and protecting the forests would be a great RP opportunity. Maybe I'm missing something.

It's a loophole, essentially. As long as I don't choose a place in the new organization I join, I don't have to lose my skills. As I said above, every other example of changing guilds demonstrates that its not a matter of just 'forgetting' everything. Do you really want to see the situation where every org has every guild included in it? Magnagorans calling ethereal forest, Celestians tainting, Glomdoringers using Stag skills, Serenwilders calling demons?

So, in conclusion... please don't interpret my opinions as forcing anything, nor as complaining about the rogues we have. I stand by what I think - that in my view, things are better when belonging to an organization means as much as it can, but I'm not trying to force that on anyone else. I know we have a lot of good rogues in Lusternia, and I think that adds to the continuing story as long as they remain apart from all four organizations.

Hey I should join Serenwilde... cuz remember I can't SPELL!!

Rogues can technically work, but you got to be more like a non-violent type, and not interested in establishing a powerbase. I'm going to be a "rogue" soon (I hate that term because it's got a negative connotation to it), but I don't have any guild skills at all, so the only thing is that the PoF replaces the Nexus as the teleport/conglutination zone.

Ialie and Exarius might also be good rogues, since I doubt neither of them are combative. Marina was GREAT as an independent. But I can't see anybody who wants to have a powerful combative character being a rogue.

About favours, hey, I know the feeling. Ive done a few things Ive always thought I should have earned a few favours, then there are some things Ive done where I think it was stupid to favour me. It depends on whose around and what their mindsets are. As you said, not everyone conforms to the pure Seren belief but in times of war a nation needs their people to be with them or theyll not be able to hold up their beliefs as well.

Which is why branding people dangerous enemies is a time honoured tradition among leaders who want mindless obedience.

Celest was not being a threat. Serenwilde was attacking them, and refused to declare war. Celest got fed up and said, fine, if you won't have the guts to declare it, we will. They did. Now everyone who speaks out against this can be brandded a heretic and an enemy of the state, especially if they try to organize their protest.

You've just described in a nutshell the way that supposedly "free states" turn into facist states. Everything that was ever remotely good in Serenwilde has died so that no one will try to tell Kalodan he can't killl some stuff.

Since when do Kalodan and Ixion constitute all of Serenwilde?

Since Serenwilde chose to harbor them and not take responsibility for their actions.

If you condone someone's aggressive behavior and protect them against reprisals, you yourself are going to be held responsible. Celest said, "Stop killing angels!" to a few people, and Serenwilde in effect rose up and said, "If you want them to stop, you'll have to go through us!"

Since Serenwilde chose to harbor them and not take responsibility for their actions.

If you condone someone's aggressive behavior and protect them against reprisals, you yourself are going to be held responsible. Celest said, "Stop killing angels!" to a few people, and Serenwilde in effect rose up and said, "If you want them to stop, you'll have to go through us!"

If Celest has a problem with two people out of Serenwilde, why not... go after those two people?

Life for everybody would be more interesting if everyone who had a problem with a city stayed in it instead of leaving.

In response:
1. The same reason an enchanter can still enchant when not joined to the org that skill belongs to? Oh wait.. enchanting requires the type of power from a powerstone or reserves right? Same idea, though?
2. Basically, the situation here is that a problem arose in which the only options were to follow along or go a different way and suffer. Either you went with the decision made by others or you go your seperate way and remove yourself from them. Unfortunately, the game is geared towards an extremist view and does not support a middle ground (even the combat systems reflect this). So what options are there? Submit, take a 180 turn in rp, or quit the org and lose skills.
2. B. And isn't it amazing that the referendum did not mention a single thing about a war? I wonder what the outcome would have been had it mentioned such?
3. And wouldn't it be a bit more diversified if there was a third element.. rogues. Let's add another extreme.. the opposite to membership in an org- rogue.
4. Given that rogues do not have access to a nexus, would it make sense for them to at least have skillsets based around the lack of power- skills that require no power? Of course they would have to be weaker in strength and usefulness, but perhaps a few could be added that have a general power cost since there are power sources for rogues (artifacts, nodes..).
5. Of course they do. And that includes pleasing those who whine the most/loudest.
6. That depends on the reason for my departure. Did I leave to forget the ways of the commune or did I leave because I had conflicting beliefs with those in power? Had I wished to leave and forget the ways, I would have already joined another org. However, that is not the case. Feel free to contact Zacc in game and ask him why he still retains his druidic ways.
7. True, but I fail to see why you even bothered to comment on that since you obviously can not fix it..

Who says that Zacc is not dedicated to him still? Zacc is still loyal to the Wilde. He is not loyal to the people who he believes to claim to be its caretakers, however. He still wishes to serve the Wilde, but he will have nothing to do with the members of Serenwilde. This is why he chose to go rogue. For more in depth information on it, contact Zacc in game and find out for yourself.

As for an OOC perspective, I really don't care what Whitehart wants or thinks. He granted them to me, and unless he's able to brainwash or erase those skills from my character, I don't see how they could be taken away. I can see not being able to use any power skills, but simple ones such as trueheart (where you paint your face) and smudges (incense) and others that require a knowledge of the art should not be removed. As long as they don't draw directly from him, I don't see how he could do anything about it.

I think I saw an ex-wiccan Celestian with fae? Maybe I was wrong...