So, I was sitting here thinking, reading posts, the usual, when I started thinking about something Lusternia lacks, but I think would really fit well into the game if implemented properly. I've seen and heard many others talk about this, but it's usually just in passing, so I thought it'd be fun to have a little discussion about it.

I think something Lusternia lacks is the ability to do damage to another organization that actually has an effect, but won't totally crush that organization to the ground for real life weeks/months. Of course the challenging thing would be coming up with ideas on how to do this. The obvious problem is that no one likes losing, and no one wants to have something they've worked for be crushed by someone else, but I think it would just make things a whole lot more interesting. It'd be really neat to actually work really hard at something and have it not be undoable in a real day.

For example, in the Sea Battle summit something like the following was discussed, and I guess the admins didn't really like the idea, but I still think it's worth mentioning. We discussed how perhaps if, say, Celest were to raise Marilynth, while Magnagora was working on killing her, a new quest would be available to Celest which was more difficult, but could do something like, say, begin to de-taint the Sea of Despair near the Ballach Swamps. After that quest would be completed, Celest would be able to complete and even more challenging quest, maybe something like summoning some spirit that begins to sap power from the Megalith, and so on and so forth. In our discussion we also mentioned that perhaps once Celest went through all the subsequent quests, there would be some sort of reward at the end, or they would have the option of spending nexus power on something for the city.

Whether or not that's the greatest idea, I don't know, but it would still lead to ways of actually causing some lasting damage to another organization. The idea is that it would be -very- challenging for Celest to actually do this, but it would be possible.

So, discuss ideas here, not just about my example, but any ideas of your own! Or feel free to smack it down, but I still think it's worth considering, because organizational conflict is probably the coolest thing about Lusternia (IMO). I think maybe with the forums, we have given the impression we don't like conflict, but I think most people who complain actually do, they just want more interesting, effective conflict.

I just realized this post did not totally convey what I meant by the topic. I was taking into consideration the current conflict, which is basically raiding, which really has no effect on anything except killing a few angels/demons, and if you kill a demon lord/supernal they're raised within a short period of time, and it seems like raiding is, well, almost pointless.

I approve of this idea.

I really like this idea, and I think it'd be excellent to implement, but as ever there's the problem of burnout and whining. No issues or suggestions from this corner, though.

I approve too.

Shamarah's signature picture says it all.

One positive way of doing this could be to find some uses for power. Perhaps you could activate a powerful attack upon another city. Say, for instance, the Megalith spends 5,000 power to create a tower that lasts 5 game days...The tower can be used as a mega attack (think a thunderclap), and the only way to defeat it would be to raid the tower, or maybe build something else.

I'm sure the admin are thinking of some stuff regarding that process of conflict. RP conflict is probably the best method though because I think the conflict quests were moved away because they were either too repetitive or too overused.

I think that's really neat actually. And if I'm not mistaken, the admins were trying to come up with more ways to spend power/limit it, so that orgs aren't just stockpiling millions of power. At this point, unless a nexus explodes, no organization will ever really be in danger of having too little power.

RP conflict might be the best method, but you can't really have real conflict at the most important location, prime. Not critizing the subject limit or anything, but it limits RP conflict as well.

Why can't we have it on prime? Praying at level 79 for me only took about 8-9%, which is absolutely nothing. I actually -miss- old village influencing and the Seren-Mag war because we DID fight on prime and it did have an effect. Granted I lost 20+ levels, and I'm a sucker for pain I guess, but I thought it was much more exciting and meaningful.

Praying is absolutely neglible now. It's pathetic. Conflict on prime should be revamped accordingly, IMO.

Because of the Subject limit. Because you can kill 10 people, and then you have to wait another 30 days until you can kill someone again.

OH, flap. I forgot about that.

Well, I think if more conflict was introduced to prime, that should be altered (and probably should anyways, but that's for another topic.)

A very neat idea! I would love a way of spending pool power too. And new quests are always nice.

I think this is a really good idea, I especially like the Tower Raising one, which would not directly harm the opposing organization -per se- but would be awesome in any case. The 10 suspect limit does really suck though, this is a conflict based game and that really lmits conflict a lot. I think lusternia's main allure was the organizational conflict and seeing that go away is (IMHO) not good for buisness. If I wan't to play a game in which im not in constant danger I'll go play a complete PVE game not this.

Why couldn't the tower be raised on Nil? Or what about a Magnagoran Aetherbubble?

BTW, I've learned the hard way over the last several years that however much I personally like the dynamics of conflict, the simple fact is that too much drives players away, which will eventually kill the game. For those who can remember in the early days, we lost many players because of the constant conflict and ease of killing on the prime plane. I know many of you want to have us remove the karma system and the 10 suspect limit. However, the results would be a dramatic increase in PK on the prime. I'm sorry but I can't just say "Harden up!" when I know for a fact that we will only be left with a handful of hardcore PKers if we do this. We've been there before and Lusternia suffered greatly for it. I know it's frustrating for those of you who want more PK and conflict, and I really don't know how to get you to understand how detrimental to the overall game it would be.

I agree with Estarra because I've seen some real interesting people leave when either one of two things happens.

1) Many players who take a more Trade or Philosophical RP are forced to either participate in the conflict, or are ejected from a community for not being "good citizens". I personally would miss players like Ialie or others more than I would miss the best warrior.

2) Different people have different levels of conflict tolerance. How do you compare a player who only can come in for a few hours a night on a Saturday with another who will gladly partake in a 24 hour raid. You can't.

It's not just Lusternia, it's virtually every MUD. That's why you either have PK flags, or rules of engagement, or something else. While some designers try to find innovative ideas to reduce it without wrecking immersion, I don't think it's really possible to have a good MUD with unregulated PK.

Don't forget in this the many of us who came for the sole reason of there being NO PK RULES and the ecstasy this was for PKers from elsewhere. Being able to kill someone because your roleplay situation demands it rather than consulting the ubiquitous HELP PK was bliss back then. A lot of those kind of players have now left.

Also, in response to the question of why people don't get more involved in making their own offplane conflicts; I think it's for the same reason that people don't count wargames events as true and serious conflict. The concept of 'going somewhere specifically to fight and not losing much if you die' is present in both scenarios. There is definitely something more appealing about prime combat.

I think that would definitely be cool, as long as it was more than just "Yay, we have a tower! Sweet."

I hate to bring this up, but take the sea quest for example. We were complaining about certain things, like the necessity of doing it, however now -no one- bothers with it at all, because there's really no point to. I think if some more conflict quests are introduced, any changes made to them should be done with gradual change. I don't know if this would be too stressful for development, but I think there's a way to balance it so that it still has an effect, but isn't so draining on anyone, rather than making all or nothing changes.

I also think that Lusternia is a lot different now, I don't think karma should be taken out, and I don't think a suspect limit should be removed, maybe just increased given the changes to praying and all of that.

Also, I understand that you don't want to lose players who don't want to PK, but at the same time, people who like conflict and combat are also losing interest too, and I think there's a way to balance things out!

If the 10 suspect limit is going to stay, there needs to be more conflict off-prime and more reasons to go there. There's no conflict on the aetherbubbles, and the only other thing to do on the planes are kill lords on elemental, kill angels/demons on cosmic, and attack random stuff on ethereal.

I like the suggestion of using power to harm another org, but if it was unregulated people would just use it over and over and over, making it annoying to "raid the tower" continuously.

How about something where an organization can spend X amount of power to break a village away from the controller, only when there is a certain alignment in the astral spheres (an idea to balance it is that it takes a month or so, maybe variable, for the village to finally declare it's leaving the protection of X organization, making it so it can't be done exactly when there is less opposition online)

It allows orgs to start conflict when there isn't much going on, and it can have a lasting effect, also using up nexus power.

I really like this idea and would hope you guys will tweak it and maybe make it viabe?

I think the whole thing to remember is one this.

A MUD is an illusion when you break it down. That's why some are called MUSHes...Multi-User Shared Hallucination. All we do is provide text and a small simulation of beings through the use of computer code. All role-playing is.

All computer games are limited in scope compared to a Pen and Paper RPG. For instance, Neverwinter Nights can have a DM-player and custom content, but there's still some things the game can't do. Emergent games like GTA and the upcoming spore can do some neat things with an AI, but they are still just illusions--the lack of a human player for the NPCs can break the illusion.

The point is to look beyond the illusion, not let the flaws in the illusion distract you.

For instance, it is highly doubtful that you'd ever be able to permanently defeat an enemy city--remember, in the MUD, PCs are both on one side or another.

So rather than focus on the limitation, try thinking of cool ways to break the cycle. Try finding different forms of conflict. Have a mass dreamweave raid, or a mass psionic raid. Try to assasinate a specific individual--maybe do a raid on Celest and kill all the guards, then depart. Or try coming up with some special ideas and talk to your cities' god about implementing them.

For instance, when I am by myself, I usually do an occasional scrub or polish, or I talk to some random denzien. I don't care if a god is listening or not, I treat them like another person. I consider a response to be a bonus, not a limitation.

I think the worst thing to do in a MUD is get too jaded. Then you get cynical and you don't want to play, or you start seeking out other MUDs for the "new MUD smell" and then the cycle of creeping jadedness will continue.