100% Magic Attacks

by Narsrim

Back to Common Grounds.

Richter2006-08-07 20:27:58
QUOTE(Daganev)

Stuff


Two f-bombs by a mod, tsk.

(Yeah, I know they were copy/pasted accidentally doh.gif )
Unknown2006-08-07 20:29:57
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Aug 7 2006, 07:02 PM) 316406

There are? Resilience, robes/armour, drawdown/nightkiss, numen, those ecology tokens, various psionic things... huge amounts of abilities and skills to tremendously reduce physical damage.


There are more ways available to any one person to lower physical damage than magic damage, in many cases at least - you can't have drawdown and numen, or a token a psiarmour, or nightkiss and draconis. Certain classes have more physical resist skills than magic resist ones, yes, but there's also the matter of racial resistences.

Also: Drawdown and nightkiss protect against all types of damage. Things that protect against everything (guardian symbols, tomes, ect.) shouldn't be counted.

But really, I think all resistences need to be looked at. Some of the extremes really need to be curbed.
Athalas2006-08-07 20:41:51
I'd just like to say somethin quickly. As a lobo aquamancer with 10 intellect 53 blunt robes, cold proof, psiarmour, and biofeedback cold I would do a good 100-200 damage more to myself with a staff than as a 15 int human moondancer with magic proof robes, moonaura, drawdown, and maiden blessing. My magic is inept and I have no resilience.
Laysus2006-08-07 21:07:07
Can't compare lack of warrior damage to lack of moondancer damage because warrior attacks do more than just damage, whereas moonburst has no passive afflictions etc. tied in.
Unknown2006-08-07 21:13:04
QUOTE(Soll @ Aug 7 2006, 07:34 PM) 316395

That's the point he was making, Ytraelux. That Daganev always spells it 'Rediculous' and not 'Ridiculous'.


I've embarrassed byself too much today. Goodnight all. I'll shut up now hide.gif
Sylphas2006-08-07 21:22:27
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Aug 7 2006, 04:08 PM) 316424

But again, you're a furrikin moondancer which is about as resistant to magic as it's possible to get.


No one should be able to get almost immune to a damage type. My solution would be to just change how it stacks. Instead of 1000 - (1000 * (0.1 + 0.3 + 0.3)) = 300 damage, have it do (((1000 * 0.9) * 0.7) * 0.7) = 441 damage. We might still be damnably tanky to magic damage, but it'd be a good start.
Xenthos2006-08-07 21:26:12
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Aug 7 2006, 05:22 PM) 316449

No one should be able to get almost immune to a damage type. My solution would be to just change how it stacks. Instead of 1000 - (1000 * (0.1 + 0.3 + 0.3)) = 300 damage, have it do (((1000 * 0.9) * 0.7) * 0.7) = 441 damage. We might still be damnably tanky to magic damage, but it'd be a good start.

Geb suggested that a few summits ago, it apparently got denied.
Sylphas2006-08-07 21:31:17
I hate when reasonable suggestions get denied without giving a reason. At least say "Hey, that requires major code rewrites, we'd prefer to do a massive, yet easy, change."

No offense to the divine, You guys work hard. It's just annoying sometimes.
Estarra2006-08-07 21:41:23
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Aug 7 2006, 02:31 PM) 316453

I hate when reasonable suggestions get denied without giving a reason. At least say "Hey, that requires major code rewrites, we'd prefer to do a massive, yet easy, change."

No offense to the divine, You guys work hard. It's just annoying sometimes.


Not everyone agrees that any particular suggestion is 'reasonable'. I will say however that sometimes people assume things have been requested that aren't. Recently someone has accused us of stopping Roark from making Pureblade and Axelord upgrades that he agreed to, which is completely untrue. As for the above formula, I don't recall that being in an envoy report. Not saying whether I agree with it or not, just that I don't recall seeing it before (though I think the hypothesis on how the formulas work is offbase).
Geb2006-08-07 21:50:30
The suggestion to change the way damage resistance stacking works was made during an envoy summit. I just pointed out that Achaea had the same problem with damage resistance stacking so much that a person would end up only taking 10% of the full damage from a physical attack. It allowed people to easily tank Achaean named mobs. Anyhow, they resolved the problem by removing the direct resistance stacking on abilities that were not native to the class the person possessed. Something similar can be done here, helping to reduce the extreme amount of magic resistance some people are able to acquire.
Xenthos2006-08-07 21:50:31
QUOTE(Estarra @ Aug 7 2006, 05:41 PM) 316457

As for the above formula, I don't recall that being in an envoy report. Not saying whether I agree with it or not, just that I don't recall seeing it before (though I think the hypothesis on how the formulas work is offbase).

It wasn't in a report. It was raised by Geb in one of the summits. Sorry, I don't remember which one. sad.gif
Sylphas2006-08-07 21:58:51
By reasonable, I meant more things that make might sense and could work, not things like "I want Moonburst to do 2k to everyone, with 2 second balance!"

We love you Divine!
Narsrim2006-08-07 22:36:08
QUOTE(Estarra @ Aug 7 2006, 05:41 PM) 316457

Not everyone agrees that any particular suggestion is 'reasonable'. I will say however that sometimes people assume things have been requested that aren't. Recently someone has accused us of stopping Roark from making Pureblade and Axelord upgrades that he agreed to, which is completely untrue. As for the above formula, I don't recall that being in an envoy report. Not saying whether I agree with it or not, just that I don't recall seeing it before (though I think the hypothesis on how the formulas work is offbase).


Ok, if you have the time (which I realize you likely don't, but you are pretty much the source of truth as most player tests will be flawed in some shape or form), I would like to urge you to just check into the amount of potential magic resistance, expressed as a percentage, available to certain racial/class combinations versus the absolute max potential resistance of various other damage types.

QUOTE(Shadowdancer Furrikin with Astrology)

Let us use Ferlas, as a Shadowdancer Furrikin with Astrology as an example. Ferlas would have had access to level 3 racial resistance to magic, Magic skillset, Magic proof on a great robe (or splendor robe), Garb, Nightkiss, Dragon sphere (sometimes).

Just from using rough estimates (which you can likely clearly/easily validate or invalidate): Level 3 racial resistance is ~20-30% reduction, Magic skillset is ~30% reduction, Magic proof on a great robe is ~10% reduction, Grab is ~5-10% reduction, Nightkiss is ~25-30% reduction. In sum: 90-110% resistance to magic damage (add another 5-20% for dragon sphere for an ending total of 95-130% reduction).


QUOTE(Orclach Ur'guard with Rituals/Necromancy)

Let us use Murphy, as an Orlach Ur'guard Bonecrusher as an example. Murphy would have had access to level 2 racial resistance to magic, Magic skillset, Magic proof on a great robe (or splendor robe), Resistance (in Athletics), Draconis.

Again using rough estimates: level 2 racial resistance is ~15-20% reduction, Magic skillset is a ~30% reduction, Magic proof on a great robe is ~10% reduction, I have honestly no idea for Resistance/Draconis, but let us assume ~5-10% (which is pretty low, I feel for a skill). In sum: 60-70% resistance to magic damage


QUOTE(Krokani Paladin with Rituals/Sacraments)

Let us use Grom, a Krokani Paladin with Sacraments. Grom would have had access to level 3 racial resistance to magic, Magic skillset, Magic proof on a great robe (or splendor robe), Resistance (in Athletics), Draconis, Numen.

Again using rough estimates: level 3 racial resistance is ~20-30% reduction, Magic skillset is ~30% reduction, Magic proof on a great robe (or splendor robe) is ~10% reduction, again no idea for Resistance/Draconis, but let us assume 5-10%, Numen offers around a 50% reduction for a short period of time. In sum: 65-130% resistance


The list goes on and on. I challenge -anyone- to name ANY OTHER damage type typical for Guardians/Wiccans/Mages/Druids comes anywhere close to this. Those damage types would be: cold, asphxia, fire, etc.
Shorlen2006-08-08 00:25:09
The resistance formula isn't purely additive, though it's close. With Aura (20%), Maiden resistance (15%), Splendor magic proofing (20%), Drawdown (20%), and inept Magic (0%), I did not have 75% resistance (additive) or 56% resistance (multiplicative). I had about 67%. My exact data is elsewhere, but it was almost exactly the average between additive resistance and multiplicative resistance, if I remember correctly.
Unknown2006-08-08 00:34:42
Are you sure draconis would reduce magic damage? I've always though it's pure physical resist.
Shryke2006-08-08 00:37:58
On that note Nightkiss only reduces physical damage...
Athalas2006-08-08 00:45:28
Uh, Guido? Straight from the draconis ab file, Cover your body in numinous draconic scales, adding a layer of protection against magical damage.
Sylphas2006-08-08 01:46:42
The average of additive and multiplicative? If that's true, WHY? If it's not, what is it? blink.gif
Unknown2006-08-08 01:51:53
Draconis is only magical I believe, if you look at really old announce posts I think I remember a post saying it changed from physical a -long- time ago.
Unknown2006-08-08 01:53:06
QUOTE(Temporary_Guido @ Aug 7 2006, 10:29 AM) 316427

There are more ways available to any one person to lower physical damage than magic damage, in many cases at least - you can't have drawdown and numen, or a token a psiarmour, or nightkiss and draconis. Certain classes have more physical resist skills than magic resist ones, yes, but there's also the matter of racial resistences.

Also: Drawdown and nightkiss protect against all types of damage. Things that protect against everything (guardian symbols, tomes, ect.) shouldn't be counted.

But really, I think all resistences need to be looked at. Some of the extremes really need to be curbed.


Wrong. There are more ways to any one person to lower Magic damage than Physical damage. Why? Resilience is like a 10% physical reduction. Magic skill is like a 30%+ reduction. Magic proofing is a flat 10%. Great robes? No that number 55 you see on there does not mean 55%. Try taking off your robes and you'll notice it makes probably less than 100 points of damage difference. They removed most class skills that give reductions to physical damage a long time ago. A lot of people have Draconis, which I believe is in the 15% range for magic damage, etc.


I'd merely like to see the Magic skillset changed. It's simply way to large of a multiplier against ONE type of damage. It should cover all magical types, not purely magic. I think this entire issue will go away if it were lowered to 10% and split up between all magic types of damage. No one really gets too ridiculous of magic resistance without transcendent magic.