If I hadn't homework to do I would've....

meh, I would've done nothing but cry in a corner and slit my wrists

Okay, here's what I'd do for the newbies of Lusternia.

At the end of the tour, it's explained in an OOC message how to use GNT, GWHO, PORTALS (maybe it's already done) and which GHELP NOOBS files to read. The last part would:
-be adjustable by the guild admin
-replace the current OOC message which tells you to read HELP GUILDNOVICES GUILD.

Why? Because the HELP GUILDNOVICES file are absolutely -->WORTHLESS<--.
Out of 12 guilds' scrolls, 7 of them don't have mentions of what files should the novice read, 4 have their GHELP NOOBS files listed, but only on after reading through shameless propaganda, and one (ur'guard) doesn't work AT ALL - I guess it's because of the ur'apostrophe.

This applies especially towards Glomdoring with its lack of people. Also, only 1 guild from Glomdoring has its GHELP files listed in the HELP GUILDNOVICES file, two others have only blabbering on how cool and powerful their guilds are.

I was unaware of a HELP GUILDNOVICES file in the first place...

I've played MUDs for a while, and I might be in the minority, but I really like the approach Serenwilde (and particularly the Moondancers) have in regards to novices, in that they strike a balance between roleplay and guidance. The directions in the CommuneHelp and GuildHelp scrolls, for example, are not as clear cut as "nw, sw, nw, touch symbol" or whatever, but more like "continue in a westerly direction along this path, adjusting regularly as you go, and place your hand upon the symbol", it actually makes you think. It's interesting and engaging. That's the kind of feel I think more experienced MUDders will be looking for!

See, I always liked that, but it's been pointed out as the #1 reason that Moondancers are "novice unfriendly," which I just don't agree with

Glad you like it!


The number of positive/neutral reactions to the directions far, far, far, outweigh the negative reactions. It's just that the negative reactions always seem to end up being more vocal about it.

Yes, but the thing is...true novices would likely be confused by it. Of course, it's nice from a roleplay point of view. However, you should treat every novice as if they were real novices until you have a feeling they aren't. Learning a new mud is very confusing and even more so if you're completely new to muds in general.

What kind of an idiot can't follow this kind of direction, anyway? If they can't, they could very well ask for help. I personally go even one step further and, when giving directions ICly, refer only once to an absolute direction and use right and left as much as possible throughout (Granted, this only works for relatively simple paths with only 90-degree turns).

And calling someone an idiot if they're confused is definately NOT newbie friendly...

Going that far would actually make it far less immersive for me. Since I'm not actually standing in the Basin looking around, and am instead sitting at a keyboard where up is always north, having to figure out which direction Sylphas is facing would just piss me off and make me take about twice as long to get anywhere.

I only do it with paths in which I'm sure people can cope with. For example, to leave my office in Deepnight and get to the fulcrux room, you do d; out; se; se; sw; sw; se; se. To give out those directions ICly, I say "Leave the tower, go southeast along Rakona, take the first right into Carthan, take the left at the intersection to reach the plaza".


Are there even novices who can't follow those instructions? That's what I meant. I think most of the people who think this kind of instruction confuses novices are just underestimating the human capacity to learn. If someone is confused at them, anyway, it's most likely because of omissions in the instructions themselves (usually a fork in the path which isn't mentioned).

That's easy said when you already know the world around you. If you just came out of the newbie tour for the first time and that was one of the first files you read, it would likely be very overwhelming.

I never liked those directions, as I didn't get on that well with them when I first came to the game (even after playing Achaea), but like 98% of novices get by just fine in my experience. So it's not a big deal.

I found stepping out into a world that looked like it was entirely formed by a stupid endless mountain range with seemingly no end either up or down was overwhelming.

If someone had said 'Head to your west and mind you don't get too close to that edge, it's a long way down! Keep following the trail until you reach the Path of (whatever), and look for a small track leading into some caverns towards the northeast', I would have been fine.

If they'd said 'Go w, w, w, nw, nw, nw, nw, n, n, n, n, ne, ne, e, d, d, se, s, ne, ne, in to newbie zone', I would have seen only the rooms and not the world. (Yes, I know portals make it easier... but substitute the directions to your guildhall, whatever).

I think an easy trap to fall into is to assume that newbies are actually as childlike as their characters appear. I believe 97% are more than capable of getting started and functioning in the game with only minimal direction. To me, it is more important to imprint a sense of Lusternia's immersive depth and RP environment on those who are shopping around, rather than assume the first thing someone wants to do in a new game is have their hand held as they are walked through every minor detail of newbiehood, that is probably not unlike two-thirds of the other MUDs out there. If they need it, then all they have to do is ask.



I can't remember if I said this before, but I think if we focus less on intensive training courses for every single newbie that pops out of the novice intro, we'd actually help a greater majority of new players a lot more. Rather than wasting resources where they aren't needed, and burning out established players with tiresome work.

Giving them understandable directions is not equivalent to holding their hand, by any means. These are newbies...who "should" know very little about the world to begin with. The established players should share the responsibility instead of it being on one or two people in a single Guild. If everyone shares the load, it isn't as large as it would seem. I agree that some newbies would be fine with minimal direction. However, my opinion is that you'd end up losing more new players because of it. And I say that from experience. I've actually left Guilds/Houses in this and other games because no one took the time to train/explain anything at all. That alone says a lot about a group. If they're not willing to properly teach their novices, to me, that shows they wouldn't be willing to help in other areas as you trained yourself.

As always, this is just my opinion which generally disagrees with most other's.

If it matters at all, before Glomdoring, the Moondancers were by far the most populated guild, having a member/novice score in TOPGUILDS regularly twice that of the second highest, and every novice who joined was giving following these directions as their first task.

And yes, when I started playing, I also had trouble with it, and had to start over once. Did that make me think it was dumb? No. It make me pay more attention to the directions and where I was. When I was a Moondancer, I always watched new seekers with Thirdeye to see if they made any of the common mistakes (not understanding the hidden tunnel under the Moon River, going too far on the Alabaster Road) and going to them if they did to explain where they made a wrong turn. When I was the GA, I did what I could to maek the directions more clear.


My direction to the Commune Proper are also similar to those, as are my directions to the Hartstone Grove, both from the Mother:

Walk to the northwest until you can no longer go northwest anymore. Then, enter the tree to the southwest, walk up the stairs inside, and you are in the Commune Proper. Careful, the entrance into the tree is hidden, but if you walk towards it, you'll see it.

First, head north to the road. Then, walk westward along the road until you find a path to the southeast leading back into the Wilde. From there, zigzag southeast and southwest until you arrive at the Grove.

The second is, to me, much easier to understand and to remember than n, nw, ne, ne, nw, n, w, w, nw, w, w, w, sw, se, sw, se, sw, which is, to me, a meaningless string of characters.

Just some opinions.

One has to remember that when that most of Lusternia's 'newbies' are not real mud newbies, or even in often cases mudders from else where trying something new. Most are IRE alts. These people who then come into Lusternia, are of three kinds.
- the ones who wants to be left alone totally to learn
- the ones who want to make the trainers life a living hell by asking questions, we all blatantly know only an alt would think of asking.
- the ones (rare) who geniunely roleplay a new youngster newly come from the Portal of Fate

The first two are annoying, the second more than the first. I know there will always be people who are smart-arses, but seriously it's not all that fun.

So what about the real newbies. The real newbies do not have the same high expectations all these alts have. They are checking out a mud, they are checking out the people playing in this mud. They don't care about directions given in n, e, ne, nw. or in fancy words. They care about clear instructions, friendly advice, and knowing what to do next.

I have mudded for over 10 years (sad) but newbies and their behaviour never change. It is the people who are no longer newbies who behave in a know-it-all fashion to others.
In my experience, there are generally two kinds of newbies.
- the ones who seem to stare into empty spaces and not respond. mostly because they are reading the lovely spam the mud provides, and then more spam from the guilds they joined.
- the ones who seem to be on the ball, possibly because they are fast readers, or simply are more clued in anyways.

I believe the key is teach and show the newbie the very first thing he/she needs, which is the use of tells, and GNT. You can keep telling them to read this and that, but if they don't have the ability to speak back to you...what's the point? After that, it's up to the different guilds how they wish to handle their rp, and teachings. In the end it doesn't really matter, as long as the newbie knows there is someone they can speak to, and ask questions.

That has been my experience when dealing with novices over the last 10 years in at least 6 different muds.

Very good advice. Thank you.

Well, if you just want hack&slash then maybe try such a mud. Lusternis is rp encouraged and I'm actually proud that the Ur'Guard has one (unlike some other guilds), I really don't want to see Lusternia vanish in the same abyss as Achaea when it comes to rp.

Also, I was present during your training, had you simply done what you had been told it -would- have been shorter. But since you behaved like someone who had trouble taking orders from superiors in the guild you were disciplined as well. Yes that's the rp, and heck yes I like it that way. The Ur'Guard isn't going to snuggle you like many many other guilds out there.

EDIT: If you are who I think you are anyway. And my own training took like two hours, but I loved it since it gave me a feel for the guild.