Except, if they can't find the scroll on their own, they probably aren't ready for advancement. As finding it without being told shows an ability to search GHELP for something you're looking for, which is important.

It doesnt work, I cant hear novices while Im doing Demesne duty on Ethereal if theyre new.

This isn't true. At least it wasn't last night. I didn't ever hear the novice speak, though thinking back on it, I think I have heard higher-up members making comments that were obviously one side of a conversation on GNT while on Celestia, but I could be remembering wrong. I know for sure that I never actually heard the newbie speaking on GNT while I was on Celestia cause that Announce had been made last night and I remember thinking 'Well, hope whoever can hear them is helping them.'

You're not currently in a guild, you were in one only as far as I know, and you never actually did anything to change that. Please don't accuse the people who are actually caring for newbies of treating them badly when you've scarcely done anything better.

You have a bad reputation. Live with it.

A lot of newbies who bother questioning people in the guild are doing so because they're trolls. Most suggestions and perspectives newbies give are, as a matter of fact, immensely naive. I never, though, punished newbies just for questioning - not even when they were jerks about it.

No, we treat them like children that you should stay away from .Shoo!

Conflict drives Lusternia. Players that enjoy the game either enjoy being part of the conflict, or enjoy the hopeless struggle of being against it, or caught in the middle of the crossfire (I've been to both sides of it, so I like to think I'm knowledgeable about it.) Most newbies want to jump right into the action (Whatever 'action' means to them). Giving them a minimal set of guild skills, and some things for them to do and try by themselves, is the best you can do for them.

Just had a thought, I remember when GNT was changed. Yes, it was changed to allow novices to be heard across planes, because origionally GNT did not work across planes, you could not speak to someone if you have the skill to from Ethereal or higher and they couldnt speak to anyone from unless they were on the same plane. That could be what youre thinking of Morgfyre, but it was in no way made so that no matter what they could be heard or at least if it was it never worked as such.

That's true, even though most people (Of all guildranks) don't bother to read every single GHELP file. However, letting them know that there is something they can do to advance earlier (You can't even assume they're aware there is such a thing as a newbie advance) gives them something to work for if they want to, which in my opinion makes the game more driven and enjoyable. Which is better? "Ho hum, I'm killing finks to pass the time," or "If I kill enough finks to get level 21, I'll be able to get out of novicehood early and get to learning some real skills."

This would be wonderfull, but hard to do from what Shikari was telling me. (I tried to make my guild as automated as possible )

I know how theyr'e treated because I help them out despite the adminitions, and with an alarming amount of consistency, they complain how I'm the only one who actually shows an interest in them.




I do. But it's not just me who gets admonished. I have friends who get screamed at for trying to act outside formal channels, even in their own guild.

This about newbies, not your personal hatred of me.



Just being rude to newbies is punishment to them, and you pride yourself on rudeness. Even if you weren't, you can hardly be said to be speaking for everyone. The good passes without comment, the bad gets harped on endlessly, but I hear lots of bad. This isn't coming from a vaccum.



You role-play hatred and call it good role-play. I role-play flirtation, and you call it corrupt. Most of the newbies I interact with keep coming back to me for help and advice even when we wind up with no real IC connection. Now you shoo.



My suggestion stops no one from "jumping into the action", nor does it kill conflict. It allows those of us who like to think about things before being expected to declare extreme loyalties an option. There are a lot of us introverts around, and there would be more if the system wasn't rigged to drive us away.

I thought it was newbie that was changed to be heard across the planes. GNT may have worked once, but it hasn't in ages.

Might be, only noticable change made was that we could actually use the channel to speak across planes if we had the skills to do so.

Yes, I was on Nil the other day and could not hear a novice asking a question. So hopefully that will get fixed, because I also thought it always worked that way (so maybe it's just recently not worked?)

I plan to give more feedback later, but unfortunately I have to go be taught by a teacher myself .

Has it occurred to you that if someone else had paid attention to them, they wouldn't come to you? Your data isn't representative of the overall distribution. I can appreciate that there is a problem with the treating of novices, but you tend to assume that it's a lot more widespread because you only see the worse case scenario, which is that the newbie gets ignored. You're not in a position to see newbies being treated well, or you don't want to see.

I've never experienced this, nor admonished anyone for talking to newbies or helping them. However, it is understandable that a guild would want to keep control of the newbie experience they're providing - they want their newbies to given the right information and put into the role of a guildmember.

Every time I point out flaws in your argumentation, or your nigh insuperable (IE, worse than mine) pedantry, you take that as persecution and pretend I'm turning the argument into a chance to flame you. That's just self-centered.

Stop it with the baseless accusations. Have you ever been in a guild with me, or gone through the trouble of creating an alt to check on that? I go to the length of almost breaking character to be nice to newbies. Even though I don't see why a violent, evil guild needs to act like nice, cuddly babysitters when treating their newbies, I know that you have to try and give them as good a game experience as possible - Hence, they must not feel like they're being abused. In character, I've never been rude to a newbie, particularly not one that is fresh off the portal, and I've gone out of my way to help them (Who else sells great robes to novices at 2000 per? Oh, right, a lot of people. You just refuse to see it because you love your pedestal so much.) Of course, some novices just invite abuse (IE, those that request an interview and act like complete idiots in a way that seems deliberate). I don't pretend to be very nice to apprentices (GR1 members, hence not real newbies anymore), but it's really a matter of either showing intelligence or drive - I don't see you taking the time to 'help' any of the less interesting or smart newbies, and guild undersecs and secs do that inglorious, painful work all the time. A little more respect, please.
We don't let newbies get involved in the hatred, either (No PK, not even rude shouting). Oh, and unlike you, I try to make sure newbies turn to productive players of Lusternia - Good fighters, interesting roleplayers, dedicated guild workers, or just people who play with other's enjoyment in mind. You just want to drag them into a dark room.

There's a difference between 'introverted' and 'stuck in a clamshell'. Also, spending admin, coder, designer, builder and player time to satisfy the needs of a tiny minority that doesn't really have a place in the game world (And that's the thrill of playing that minority) is kind of pointless. Deepnight exists, also.

What a wonderfully concise summation of the contempt for newbies that was complained about in the original quote!

Naive is not the same as stupid. New is not the same as children (even if you were joking, there's usually a kernel of truth at the base of every joke). Asking why does not necessarily mean disagreeing -- although questions are invariably treated that way.

But, since I've never posted before, I guess I'm a foolish, naive child -- or perhaps a troll -- and my opinion isn't as important as others'. Maybe after I've posted a few more times I'll know what I'm talking about.

Verithrax, we're not trying to establish whether there's a problem or not. There IS a problem. That's why this thread exists. This thread is here to solve the problem of people not feeling welcome and wanted, and you keep telling us that either it isn't happening or that the people who don't add to your personal fun should be chased away.

In what way do you not see that as counterproductive?

Contempt? I see no contempt. A lot of newbies are fun to train, smart, and ask good questions. Others, sadly, aren't. The same goes for Lusternia at large, of course, and even newbie trainers.

Asking a question is not the same as questioning. If a newbie asks why something is so, I answer the question. If a newbie questions the wisdom of doing things a particular way, I explain why, but most newbies simply haven't been to Lusternia long enough to understand why this or that is done in that way. ICly, however, I've actively worked to stimulate critical thought. One example (Which, now that I'm telling people, I'll have to stop doing) is failing people in tests - And giving bonus points to people who question that decision, something I've done a number of times.


Even though I haven'tp ersonally seen newbies being horribly mistreated and abused like you claim you have, I know it happens and I know there is a problem - But pointing fingers (Which is basically what you're doing) isn't going to help much, either. A lot of people do a lot of good work, and just making broad generalizations about the way newbies are treated is nothing but devaluing those people for no reason.

Why is it that in the discussion of why newbies are leaving has to revolve around you (or any one person). I will not call you a liar when you say you don't get defensive and ridicule newbies who ask why.

Do not assume that I am a liar when I say I have seen/heard it more times than I can count.

The newbies who deal with you are apparently lucky.

Others are not. They are treated like children and told to behave or else.

Please do not discount others' tales just because they are not about you.

Right. Let's just solve the problem by failing to analyze what could be done better, because somebody might get his feelings hurt.

I'll just shut up now and not say what problems I'm seeing, because this whole endeavour was really nothing but an excuse to gather 'round the virtual campfire and congratulate ourselves for a job mediocrely done.

In other words, "You've seen different things than I did, hence you're calling me a liar." I was clarifying that I don't act with newbies the way you obviously presumed I did. I also never saw anyone act that way with novices, that I can recall. Clearly, we've had different game experiences.


What about you start proposing solutions, or maybe pointing fingers a little more specifically, or maybe making claims supported by evidence, or maybe stop pretending you're a good samaritan and all guild officials are evil mean buraucrats that treat novices like crap? That might help.

Taking care of novices, specially in Lusternia (Which can be very stressfull at times, say when the Celestians are raiding) is neither easy nor universally pleasant. You're claiming to be better than guild undersecretaries, but the reality is, you help newbies when you feel like it, with ulterior motives, and when the novices agree with you. The volunteers working in guilds (IE, the ones really working, whom I wouldn't kick out of undersecretariat in a moment's notice) do it whenever it is necessary and possible, regardless of that.

About the subject of novices questioning things I think Verithrax is more right than not. If someone is genuinely asking why something is so with the intent to actually listen to what people say and then try and understand that then there's no problem.

There are lots of cases however where its different. A novice will "ask a question" which is really just a semi-veiled denunciation of whatever they're asking about. Any attempt to explain is taken as being told to shut up by the older guild members and it fuels their supposed righteous anger. Then they feel justified in quitting and running around telling everyone about how bad that guild was because of how wrong they were treated. I'm not saying this is what all novices do but to deny that it happens is silly.

Exarius, Verithrax:

Let's move on. Everyone who bothers to read the forums knows you two can't stand each other.

As Estarra said:


There are problems. Pointing out what we each have experienced and/or witnessed is a valid part of looking at the problem.

Saying a problem exists does not mean it is rampant, but it only takes one bad moment to poison the whole experience when you are new.

Yes, Anarias, not everyone is treated rudely and some newbies are looking for trouble, but that doesn't mean the various claims of rudeness are not without merit.

Maybe we should all take a deep breath and realize when person A says 'I saw this', we are not all required to jump in and proclaim our innocence. Maybe it was a one-time thing. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was you. Maybe it wasn't.

Any player that takes the time to be on the forums probably wants the game to be fun and wants others to play.

I would think the most useful part of this thread is for each of us to examine our own behaviour and decide for ourselves if we are ever rude or dismissive of newbies -- maybe for valid reasons.

The thing is, you get one chance at a first impression. You may be in the middle of a fight to the death with your city/commune's mortal enemy, but a brusque answer is still a brusque answer to someone who feels lost and alone.

Rhosyn