Intersting... if a blacktalon or a hartstone meld the Sea of Despair, you still have to swim?

I know for geomancers you don't have to swim if they meld the sea, but you can stll dive (unless they changed this)

Auskelis said (and shikari did too ironically) that nature can take care of itself. You are 'healing' it from what you as a commune percieve as being bad, not what "nature" sees as being bad. Nature will live with things you don't like, doesn't mean you have 'accept' that.

Yes, you still have to swim.

As for what you're saying here, that's true. A form of Nature will live on regardless of what any organization does (well, unless one of them resummons Kethuru or something ). But we each interpret that outcome differently - Glomdoring I imagine would view that Nature as either unchanged or improved, while some parts of Serenwilde will see it as corrupted and perverted (and others won't care because its outside Serenwilde ).

I'm not trying to argue either view is the right one, nor do I think this particular argument has anything to do with the topic. Our focus on healing Nature is written into the histories, if your character doesn't agree with what we define as healing... that's your characters choice. You can't oocly say we're wrong and should be forced to admit that we are wrong.

All I am saying is that from the lands perspective, it would rather be its "natural" state, and not be a "ethereal forest"... so saying that it rebels or rejects should not be a problem for you.

However, I am curious what happens when the "natural" state is something not natural, like urban or road... Its hard to argue that Urban is its "natural" state.

Go back and read what I believe happens when a druid summons forest in a non-forest environment. I don't think it is perturbed from its natural state, nor do I believe it should be rejecting the representatives of itself. Thus it is a problem, and just saying it shouldn't without any logical justification won't change my mind.

Also, I'll point out that roads are not unnatural. Don't fall into the trap of superficial assumptions - animal tracks are common in the natural world, many creatures trampling a pathway into the surrounding bushland.

Trueground works in road and urban like it must, because you're simply restoring the original state of the environment by removing all other magics in the location. There's no druidic awareness that should be part of the act.

I don't believe ethereal forest is representative of anything but forest. No other environment is reflected on the Ethereal plane.

I meant the druids. Well, druids and other commune people.

ARGGGGGHHHHHH!!!



Xenthos just pointed out to me that an unannounced change has occurred, in which SURVEY now gives the summoned environment rather than the original one.

For instance,

You discern:
You are standing in an aether ship.
Your environment conforms to that of forest.
You are in the Aetherways.
You are currently in Avaerin.

So, this means that yes, we destroy the natural ecosystem that was in the location previously. Yes, instead of the beautiful and immersive imagery of bridging the physical and spiritual worlds to allow a ghostly forest to shimmer in and out of corporeality... we apparently just snap our fingers and plants grow in seconds, and a magical squirrel army poofs into existence at our call. No matter what was there beforehand - warm ocean waters brimming with aquatic life, expansive valleys blooming with flowering grasses, or blistering deserts concealing a harsh but resilient ecosystem - we wipe it out with a single command and replace it with artificial trees and animals because forest is more useful to us. Hello generic forestal!

There is no better 'healing' of the Basin than what every single character in the game can do - truegrounding - and Serenwilde is in fact one of the prime causes for harm against what we are supposed to care about.

Why? What was wrong with letting us believe that we weren't hypocritical, shallow savages with a lust for power and no belief in anything greater than ourselves?



And why do these forums have to spazz every time I want to post something I think is important? Conspiracy, I say!

AHA! I was using a different meaning for the word natural than you.

I ment Natural as in, the way the land was when it was created. Before the animals and the people got to it. I guess I should have used the word Original not natural.



As for your rant... I think you are completely off base. And now it finally makes more sense.

Healing the basin means removing the affects of the souless from it. Thats it.

That is why orginally, the aquamancers were just as much healers of the basin as Druids were, and why with the discovery of the fae, Wiccans were able to be healers as well.

Except that the Wiccans healed the Fae first, then the Druids began healing the land, then the Aquamancers started to crawl out of the Forest life.

Daganev, you have no concept of OOC and IC separation, nor apparently any ability to read and comprehend the views of people other than yourself.

What you have just said is an IC view.

Let me make that clear.

"Healing is solely about kicking off Kethuru and his friends, nothing more qualifies." <-- this is a character viewpoint.

If we choose to think of healing as being restoring the world to what it was before the corruption of taint and the influence of wyrd, there is no reason we cannot. In our view, the Celestine empire -did- heal just like we do, focusing on the waters first. We have no argument with that, it was only afterwards that we started to disagree with their methods.

Again, your belief that everyone should view 'healthy' the same way you do is irrelevant to what I am talking about here. Serenwilde believes that Nature is sacred and nothing should be done to impose artificial control or manipulation upon it, and that only if balance and natural cycles are returned to the wilderness we can be happy that Nature itself will take it from there. This is not about healing anything. It is about the view with which we regard the natural world. We do not dominate or destroy it for our own purposes. In fact, this is EXACTLY why we oppose other organizations.

except that the Soulless are part of "Nature". They are part of the Natural cycle, of creation and destruction.

So, since Serenwilde clearly doesn't revere them, they are obviously more than capable of picking and choosing. Hell, Auseklis even made it clear when he was around that the current taint is a part of Nature now, with Kethuru gone. He had no issue with the taint, but with the cities.

Saying that anything is cut and dry with Hartstone is pretty silly. White Hart definitely didn't proclaim anything. Hell, the very creatures of the Basin were created by Gods and weren't in anyway "natural" to the First World.

And not to mention that Serenwilde builds huts in the trees, which would require some sort of alteration. And there are buildings in the Serenwilde. Oh, and that the Great Trees aren't natural either, but rather were created.

So.. why is the Taint, which was created by an outside being, baaad, whereas a squirrel, which was also created by an outside being, perfectly ok?

I don't really want to get into the same philosophical arguments again, especially when they aren't relevant here. Suffice to say its easy enough to search for taint arguments if you wish to see my reasoning.

What I don't like is that Hartstone is now dominating and destroying environments. And apparently the natural world doesn't like it.

Its perfectly relevant. Squirrels technically dominate and destroy environments, but you like them. Foxes do it. Owls do it. All animals will dominate and destroy the environment in a way that results in their prosperity. When they do it, it might not be permanent, but neither is a druid raising their forest.

Why is it bad for Hartstone to bend nature temporarily for the sake of protecting the big picture?

Not true. From the website

"A commune nexus of power naturally exists in forests and is overseen by two Great Spirits of Nature. Communities form up around these nexuses, whose members form a natural bond with the nexus' forest."

Is true. From the Histories



They were not natural, but rather created by mortals with a bit of help from the fae.

*sigh*

Because that is the whole point that Serenwilde tries to make. There is no excuse for ignoring the will of the Spirits. They let Celest drown because of it, even though their intentions were completely good and worthwhile.

It is easy to pick any natural process, mankind included, and assume that Druidry is supposed to mimic Nature. That's not the way I see it. We worship Nature, we don't walk around on all fours because dogs do it, we don't build dams because beavers do it, and we don't eat our partner during lovemaking because spiders do it. We draw analogies with natural processes all the time, yes, but they are just analogies. We are supposed to be charged with a more global understanding of what is going on than the foxes and owls who care about nothing but their own survival.

I'm really tired of having the whole concept of playing Serenwilde continually chipped away at and chipped away at until there's really nothing left. Sure, Hartstone could certainly believe that it was better to bend nature temporarily for a bigger purpose, but then we really aren't Serenwilde... we're more like a duplicate Glomdoring that is cosmetically different.

Really, I don't understand why it is so hard to maintain a culture that actually believes in worshipping nature. Why is there always such a push against it? Always arguments that want to limit it and make it hypocritical and selfish. What's wrong with Serenwilde/Hartstone actually believing what it says it believes?


If I plant a seed, does that make the oak that grows unnatural, because I planted it?

Also, remember that the Fae = Nature.

Your argument is starting to sound like "If I cut this tree down, the fire won't jump to this park and destroy all of it. But I can't do that, because the tree would get hurt and I love nature!" That's a drastic simplification, of course, but it's starting down those lines.

As has been pointed out several times, Nature will get by with, without, or in spite of us. If we didn't hate the taint, Nature would eventually adapt and live with it. But we do, and we're trying to get rid of it.

Also, you're blowing things WAY out of proportion. We're not going around destroying environments on a whim. Our layer of terrain is thin and simply laid upon the surface. Anyone can come along and get rid of it, with a bit of training. It's not like we're summoning trees to tear up through the ground and choke everything with growth and devastate the whole place.

I don't get the park analogy... am I trying to argue the park should burn down?

I just think it would be nice if we could actually revere something without hurting/manipulating/destroying it so badly it turns around and says to us directly, "Argh, it burns it burns! Leave us alone you defilers!"

And yes, you're right about taking this too far. I should have learned my lesson last time. Deep and meaningful purpose is not supposed to be something you can build.

What I was stating was not an IC opinion. What I was stating was my opinion about what the Histories state.

They give a definition of "healing the basin". That definition is based on a cooperation between different factions which include all people pre Kethuru. After Kethuru the world was divided into what the meaning of "healing" now ment.

I am perfectly able to see different points of view, but I can also notice when they are based on your personal desire for something to be true, vs when its based on what the histories provided for us.

Your definition of what nature is suppose to be, is based on non Lusternia concepts.

The preceding were all subjective statements and not facts.


On other topics, when Auseklis said that nature would survive without us that was true. The part that isn't quoted as often was what he sometimes said after that sentence. He said it would survive without us but that the form it might grow into could be one entirely incapable of sustaining the lives of the mortal races. Any decision about what is bad or good for nature must include the fact that we have to make those decisions based on what is good or bad for nature and mortals.

"Healing the Basin" can mean a lot of things. Nowhere in any source is there an express detailed definition of what that phrase meant to the survivors of the Soulless wars. The only definitions given are implied ones.