To shorten a really long and drawn out post, I'll only say this. MOST people don't take too kindly to change. You'll find that in any group...including online.

Note: Most is bold because I want to stress that not everyone is the same. So, I don't mean every single person who plays this...or any other game.

I agree, Jessa. Change doesn't come easily.

But a lot of times, the people who get slain repeatedly give up in frustration and leave, and their voice is never heard.

Because they are afraid of complaining, afraid others, who are combatants, will call them names, or flame them.

I would like their voices to be heard, too. I would like something to be done for them, so that they don't have to give up and leave.

Everyone should be able to enjoy Lusternia.

Nononononono.

NO.

As a person who never plays fighters, doesn't have a system, and hates dying and getting jumped, I still oppose this entirely. Non-PK status is bad. BAD. First of all, allowing NPK in any mud besides ones with absolutely no PK in the first place is unrealistic. If you don't like getting killed or fighting it, handle it in-character with the mechanics available to you: never attack things, develop method to flee attackers, use the avenger system to your advantage, ect.

Also, pure pacifism goes completely against the RP of every single organization in the game besides those that allow Elcyrion followers, and even then they are usually expected to fight in defense against raids. Being unable to defend against a raid makes you a complete fraud - a Nihilist who doesn't protect Nil, an Ebonguard who refuses to protect Glomdoring, an Aquamancer who sits by as the Tide Lords are slain, can all expect to be kicked out of their respective guilds. That's like joining the army and then refusing to carry a gun! If you want to be a 100% pacifist, you'd better be a rogue or at least a non-guilded city/commune member.

ALSO, people under this 'pacifism' would still be able to complete or assist in completing conflict quests that involve no killing, and would be able to do whatever they like in terms of slinging insults, threats, and being a general dick with no consequences. But, back to quests. A pacificed commune member could traipse through Faethorn plucking up Fae and be invincible to being stopped, or other pacified people could act as teleport targets for non-pacified persons, or could spy for them, or could link during wildnodes to cause an outpouring of creatures with no harm to themselves, or could gather Firefly Squid to empower the spire without Magnagora being able to slow them... the list goes on!

Again, NO.

EDIT: Yeah, yeah, if they abuse it they could get issued for it. I can't comprehend the number of issues this would create - we'd need a gang of admins devoted to the sole task of monitoring this system, just so a handful of pacifists can be invulnerable.

Again, and again, and again I've said this: The administration has very little they can do. It's up to the players to create an environment where people can enjo the game. Adding more tacked on restrictions that are obviously OOC will just make the game less interesting, less immersive, less interesting.

Improvement is something that the players have to do. As I've said about ten times already, this is something that IC governments can do by simply taking responsibility by the actions of their players.

Everyone keeps saying this, but it's not always easy to do. When someone is doing something that is an advantage to their org, it's hard to see it as griefing. Not that the leaders "refuse to see it", but griefing is oftentimes in the eye of the beholder. It's hard to speak up to, especially if you're not in a position of power. You say something and everyone pounces on you for it (yes, it's happened to me in the past).

I'm all for having leaders control their griefers, but it is not as easy as everyone makes it out to be.

A PK flag would remove the need for the extensive Avenger system we have now. It is a well thought out idea though, and perhaps it could be explored further to come up with some sort of solution.

I'd prefer that we introduce 3 or so non-org miniguilds. I think what people are saying is that they don't enjoy being part of a large nation with such a strong sense of their own beliefs and protectorates. If we could create three or so separate little independent guilds that were scattered about the place, they could provide opportunities for the 'rogue' mentality players without really interfering in the epic heart of the story of Lusternia's civilizations. These would have access only to an aethership-fueled power reserve, no say in village influencing or culture, and no participation in the larger events of the Basin... but they would still have the opportunity to create a unique and unified guild, access a few unique skills to those available to the nations, and not be forced into anything they don't want to be forced into. Say, a mercenary guild, a hedgewitch guild (non-nature worshiping), and a beastmaster guild.

You raise quite a few valid points, however, I feel that you are binding yourselves to existing situation.

Felandi is a Nihilist, and the Nihilists -agree- that she will be one. As such- it is up to the -players- to decide who is a fraud and who isn't. The forces in the game are not violent by default, and you compare it to an army- so, joining a guild or a city means you joined the armed forces? I totaly disagree with that notion.

There are tons of ways to advance "teachings" through scholarship, or preaching or experimenting- demanding that only fighters be allowed to join will quickly turn the game into a huge and constant blood-bath, and it's quite close to it as it is.

If all orginizations continue to favour only those who fight, they will soon find themselves with less and less people joining and their culture or RP depth in the toilet.

Let's take the Demon Lords for an extreme reason, you have Baalphgar that favoures intrigue and intelligence over brute force- why can a Nihilist not choose to adhere to these teachings and totaly act by them? it's totaly logical.

I feel that there are two ways we can go about it, we either say to ourselves: it's a game, everyone should fight because it's a game and there's no actual segregation between the army and civilians OR we can remind ourselves that this is a RP game, and as such, there SHOULD be a segregation between the two.

I truly believe that having ministers who deal -only- with their offices and keep away from constant militaristic situations will lead to a far better management- as long as they work together and consider the effects it has on the offenssive and defensive capabilities of the said orginization.

If you want a rich enviroment, you will need to allow it. If you wish to smother it, keep saying that people should just leave Lusternia- what you suggest is not a solution, but just accept the fact that people leave and continue to do so. We lost quite a few excellent players because of this, Athana is just one example.

I am not even a pacifist nor do I want to be, but I do clearly see that there should be implemented -some- solution. And I -can- see a place for pacifists in certain places- if the players allow it, then who are you to say that they are frauds?


that's it I guess.

cheers.

It's from from easy, but it's still our only choice.

I like those ideas, Avaer. I'd love to hear more about the guilds you mentioned, could you provide a bit more insight on how you see them, please?

Avaer, your ideas sound great. however... there is a problem. Like it or not, you will not be able to maintain a proper living without either taking villages for commodities or making -some- arrangements with said nation in order to get the supplies from them.

it will effect the status quo because those would be orginizations shall compete over the same resources. Also, will you be allowed to enter all nations? will you not spy or one another?- this can be easily abused... and supervizing this cannot be implemented by any means of mechanichs.

maybe someone who is wiser than me can figure a way to keep this going.

Felandi is also forbidden from ever progressing past GR1.



That doesn't matter. It's the principle of the thing - you believe fervently for this cause, and will preach it and study it to the end of your days, but when the time comes you won't even dirty your hands for it?



Not saying that fighting > RP, nothing like that. What I'm saying is that the two are related; if you refuse to fight, that's part of your RP. Again, it's also the principle of it. See above.



When Baalphegar is attacked he fights back just as any other Demon Lord does. Also, his intrigues aren't exactly innocent - could you really plot assassinations, subvert good causes, and spread general dissent and chaos while being a 'pacifist'? Fighting isn't his focus, but he's just as brutal and violent as any other demon lord.



Again: if you wish to be a civilian, don't join a guild! The guilds are essentially the armies. Why do you think they're the ones that get all the skills that allow them to fight and kill? Tully was a civilian, he was never expected to fight or defend, but he was also not a part of a guild.



I think you have very little understanding of our governments.

The only thing I see with mini-guilds is that eventually they will grow to have their own beliefs, and ideas, and eventually they'll get involved in the Basin anyway. 3 RL years later this argument will start over, because the neutral-miniguilds will no longer be neutral. It will happen.

QFT. Could make a million arguments against neutral guilds, but the only one you really need is 'they won't stay neutral'. A lot of Merian will join one and Fain will urge Magnagora to slaughter it, or a hated ex-Celestian will rise to lead one and Celest will ban trade with it, or any number of other situations will arise.

I read through what you said, until I saw your last comment Guido. Since I do not see a way to reply for you are 100% certain you know everything and are right whilst all other ideas are wrong... what's the point of arguing.

There is alot to be gained in political struggles -without- killing anyone, also, who ever demanded that said people with ever ascend beyond GR1- as I have said before, that is entirely up to the players to decide.

Why are there pacifists today? in RL? them being unwilling to hit back means that they don't give a damn about their countries? you disagree with the logic, and I do as well- but they have a right to exist. Since this game binds you in a certain mechanichs in which you are quite without skills if you are not in a guild you have two choices- either allow them to live and progress the guild in their own way or kick them all out.

Don't drag RL analogies in, they won't work. As for my last comment, let me support it: reducing the amount of fighting would have no influence on how well or poorly ministers handle their jobs. There's no corrolation between the two. Most ministers only have to worry about their positions for maybe 20 minutes each day - they check their messages, scan their reports, make sure all's in order, and then get on with their lives. They might need to send off some messages of their own or have a meeting, or write up a new post or file, but none of these responsibilites are huge in terms of time consumption.

Ministers' duties have nothing to do with fighting, beyond the fact that the power minister will be tracking how much has been lost due to cosmic raids or things of that nature. If the fighting were gone their jobs would remain the same. Also, raiding and defending never eat up so much time that a minister cannot address their duties - it might interfere here and there, but anyone decent will know how to manage their affairs.

Throw away Karma, bring Primebond!

Am I the only one who likes it, or what?

That's retarded.

What if you can't do anything whatsoever to help? One thing is withholding your skills. Another quite different is not wanting to die uselessly.

In other words, if you want to take part in a PC organization and have skills, you're going to have combat shoved down your throat? That's moronic. If we started outguilding people for not defending and raiding, we'd end up with an even more frustrated playerbase, while the players who aren't in it for the PK (And who coincidentally tend to be the ones doing all the non-PK work) progressively disappear.

I think you have no understanding whatsoever of our guild administration.

Well, I'm sure others would be more creative than me, if the idea is viable... but I see having little neutral groups as an alternative to either watering down the existing nations, or creating the dreaded neutral city/commune (which would only last until they decided not to be neutral).

I see them as the wildcards of the political scene. They could have allegiance to no-one but themselves, and without being a real competitive threat in taking away villages or whatever, they wouldn't really need to develop any animosity if they chose not to.

The mercenary guild could be an extension of the Toscha monastery, warriors from many nations growing disillusioned and seeking to find a place where developing one's own skills and ability is honoured more than any rhetoric or religion. They would have Athletics, Knighthood, and then some non-power dependent third skill... perhaps Tactics for gaining an advantage by certain preparations or predicting styles of attack, or alternatively something like Form, which would incorporate different martial stances and graceful movements that would modify each attack.

The hedgewitch guild could be formed in the remnants of Project Soulforce (which I don't know anything about), which drove the Mugwumps from their swamps. In the process, certain locals discovered that there was a remnant energy that they learned to harness and store so that it could be used to affect reality around them. They would haves the skills of Hexes, Illusions, and some sort of Witchery skill that involved storing the energy and using it to delay/improve/create other spells.

And the beastmaster guild, well, it could be a small outpost established by those trackers that came to the Basin ages ago, formed by people who believe that there is great power in the ferocity of the animal kingdom, and tame great beasts and befriend them. They would have the skills of Hunting/Tracking, Healing, and Taming, which would involve finding and befriending wild animals for their benefit.

Just examples, mind. The idea is that there are little mini-guilds so that individualists aren't forced into Lusternia's primary civilizations. They would be no worse off than the rogues we have now, except they aren't completely screwed by not having skills/power/a home. There would be a few small markets (shops) for each guild, but no mechanics that can interact with any of the four nations.


Edit: The difference with the nations is that these guilds have no loyals (except maybe a single tutor) to be killed, no territories to be raided, and no drain on any of the competitive conflicts. While there is no doubt some might develop political leanings that would fluctuate, there is nothing in the game itself that says they cannot remain completely neutral and friendly with all organizations. This is not true of the four nations, no matter how much people want to believe that they can ignore that background.

As if it weren't enough that pacifism goes totally against all the Nihilist ideals, Luciphage himself told us that followers of Elcyrion were insults to the guild and the Demon Lords. Expect them to ignore that?



If you're still rather new that's fine, we're not going to make you do anything. If you're not, though, expect different. Druids and mages can break melds, guardians and wiccans don't need any talent to call and order their ents, or webwhore, and warriors can always at least dish out a bit of damage and absorb a nice chunk themselves. Also, even I can throw together enough of a system that, though I'll still suck, I'll be able to stay afloat long enough to keep on swinging until I go down. Usually.



Said nothing of raiding - no one should be forced to raid. And if you don't happen to defend sometimes, that's fine too, it's an outright refusal to defend that I'm talking about being bad. If you want to be a part of a guild you get to take the bad along with the guild, it's called responsibility.

The game requires no one to be tied to another. But it happens. The mini-guilds will, because there are human beings playing the characters, eventually align themselves with others. It will happen.

Guido, I can't program. I can't. I have aliases set up, but triggers and variables I can't do. I've been trying since February and I can't. Everiine is level 63 and cannot, repeat -cannot- hold his own in battle. I have no skill using combat, I can't keep up with curing, I suck suck suck. Even those who try sometimes just cannot PK.

This is not a game where you have to be good at it to play. The moment someone tells me "You aren't a good fighter? Then you're kicked out of the guild.", I will not only leave guild and commune I will leave the game. When we get that elitist this game will be no better than some of the crap ones out there. To expect someone who is here to play the game and have fun to just drop everything and engage in something they don't find fun is idiocy. Yes, this is a conflict game, but the Admin have done very well in providing ways to play the game that aren't centered around PK. Start kicking people out because they won't PK is not wise. How much has been added to the game's flavour and character by people who haven't spend tons of money on credits and systems?