I'm not so sure about the Summer Court, at least for my part we knew what was going to happen, because the vocal majority of the playerbase wanted a tainted, grr argh Glomdoring. When Viravain started setting up the organization, I assumed it was just the best way to get things done quickly and without letting everything descend into a freeforall grab for power.


On this topic itself... wow. Just wow. I really didn't think things were as bad as they seem to be.

It should come as no surprise that I'm voting for Gloriana, but I hate the way it presumes Gloriana = neutral. I don't want to see a neutral organization ever in Lusternia, I think that is completely unfair and imbalanced, and it is completely unnecessary.

If I remember correctly, the initial fear was that the players couldn't take up Gloriana 'dark' roleplay without having glaring taint-like reminders everywhere they look. I really don't think this is true, and the caliber of their current leadership and just some of the smaller characters should be a testament to the fact that it is worth trying again, but trusting in the players to maintain their atmosphere.

I like what the new Viravain is trying to bring to the nation's attitude, more of an outgoing and devious mentality than pure isolation. I think that if the Wyrd became more of a reference to what Glomdoring views as the 'destiny' of all things rather than a corruptive/changing force, so Wyrded forest is just regular forest that has been coerced or dominated into serving Glomdoring's designs rather than actually changed forest, then Glomdoring could get on -much- better with the other organizations on a fundamental level and have disputes and grudges formed from their beliefs and choices rather than unalterable reality. I think that Gloriana could be pro-taint without actually being tainted themselves, at least recognizing the power in it if not embracing it themselves.

I think there is so much about the dark, evil forest concept that could be really appealing if it wasn't separated from everything else by pure mechanics. An evolved Gloriana is NOT snuggly, it DOESN'T have to abandon the compassionless cruelty that Glomdoring tries to have now, and quite frankly it isn't that far off what Glomdoring players have tried to achieve anyway. It would also allow Glomdoring to really differentiate themselves (and hopefully they decide to) philosophically from Serenwilde, when they don't have "but we serve Wyrd" to fall back on. I also think that a change to their RP would have significant benefits for the playerbase in Serenwilde, who have been very much affected (in my opinion negatively) by Glomdoring player's decisions to move away from what the initial setup involved.

As for Viravain, I don't see anything wrong with her new incarnation, but I'm not close enough to make an informed judgement.

Ivory tower elitists(glom) vs Real world experiencers(seren)?

How is this much different?

But based from what you are saying, the only difference I see is an obseession with love for viravain, which really doesn't affect how we understand Night and Crow.

I don't think the wyrd has anything more to do with this than the flavor of cheesecake we used to test Viravain's identity.

I disagree. If the wyrd wasn't the altering force it is now, you'd BE Gloriana.

And all else being equal, we'd still be right here.

Which is why I ask what "Players need a more "neutral" org--make it into Gloriana." means

As far as I can tell, Glomdoring is pretty much "neutral" in most ways that matter.

Except that right now, Glomdoring has very little dark RP. It has great RP, undoubtedly, but with the wyrd safely in place there's no real reason to develop any kind of cruel or dominating relationship with the fae/natural world. There's no real derision or despisal for other nations, and there's not really any embracing of the undead, sadistic, or whatever aspects of Glomdoring's culture. I know this is the wrong time to bring this up again, but you're Serenwilde, with Glom skills and the Wyrd.

Yay for proving his point. Stop trying to revolve the world around you please. And I'm not someone who thinks you don't belong in Lusternia, I'm just one of the many who hate you for entirely different reasons.


On topic, I think one of the biggest problems with Glomdoring was that at release, the Serenwilde as given MULTITUDES of IC reasons to hate them and try to beat them down and really no reason to try to reconcile their differences, Glomdoring was encouraged to push away Magnagora's offers of help by Viravain, and Glomdoring was given many reasons to hate Celest. Where did this leave Glomdoring? A very lonely place to be.

This actually reminds me of Mhaldor in Achaea. Mhaldor is basicly just like Glomdoring; an authoritarian, totalitarian theocratic dictatorship, that (until recently) worshiped one god (first Sartan, then Apollyon), who is always right, with no possibility of public dissent. It was also notoriously hostile to non-citizens, killing anyone who wandered into the city, and alienating the other five cities, leaving Mhaldor without allies and the subject of constant raids, 24/7. Although it was renown for it's intense RP (yes, in Achaea), it had the smallest population. However, it changed. The gods revamped the ciy's administration, and Mhaldor loosened up. They set up alliances with other cities, they stopped killing anyone who walked into Mhaldor, they opened up appropriate channels where one could complain about abuse and dissent privatly without fear of being killed, and they stopped hiding within the city walls and started taking part of in world politics. Within an IC year or two they had become the world power; they crushed the forces of Good and ground them under their heel. They are still the smallest city, their RP is still intense, but they're not a dead-end city anymore.

...Gloriana had nothing to do with dominating, derision, despisal, undead, sadism, or anything.. so.. by your reasoning.. Gloriana would just be Serenwilde with Gloriana skills and without the Wyrd.

Glomdoring is much different than Serenwilde. The entire atmosphere is just.. different.

As long as Estarra is doing a mea culpa, I do have one question for her, if she feels like answering.

At one point, I remember a commune leader trying to kick out Viravain, but that was overriden and Shikari supported Viravain. I remember Lisaera stating "we are doing this for a reason, we do not want Magnagora 2.0".

So, what was your view of what Glomdoring should be and how do you think it differed from what resulted from the player base? I know you had the two factions of the DoC and Summer Court, and I believe you were trying to prevent the commune from falling into a "taint vs light" type of battle--which didn't seem to work in the long run, not just from the Glomdoring player-base but the other orgs as well.

Also--I wonder if the player base gets upset because Lusternia is still new and they feel they should organize the cultures of the orgs, cities, and communes from the get-go and hope to see them "last forever". That's possible but as the game lengthens in time it becomes improbable and I hope people don't obsess over that kind of thing, because in a dynamic world and dynamic games, things can and will change, both for RP reason and game balance reasons.

And it sounds like Achaea did the right thing with Mhalador. Sometimes, the GMs need to be a bit forceful for the greater good.

In my mind, the key difference between Glomdoring and Gloriana is a 'taint' that means they are not an original commune.

After everything that has happened, a new Gloriana will not be the same as the old Gloriana, particularly as they have insane spirits that can't be turned back. They have been changed by their experiences, and they aren't just darkly pragmatic and practical, passionate and diplomatic anymore (which is what I see the old Gloriana being like), they have seen horrors and nightmares that have left them quite different.

I actually think Daganev has it reversed. I've always seen Serenwilde as insular, elitist mystics who care more about their magics and rituals than anyone else, while Gloriana was more of a worldly commune in being proactive in external politics, very aristocratic in the sense of having a high sense of style and charm, and using their arts to influence the world through diplomacy and if necessary, subtle manipulations and deceptions. They were probably also the most passionate of the communes, and had the highest ideals of beauty and aesthetics.

Ok... So now You and Fallen have exact opposite definitions of Gloriana....

anyone have a vision that they can support with "proof from the texts"??

There's no need for a debate, we could run with any vision that the admin choose. Personally, that's my feel for the attitude and roleplay of both places, pre and post taint, and I'm sure Fallen's is the feeling he gets.

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong though, because so much has happened to Glomdoring that it can basically become anything Estarra likes.

*sigh*.... OK let me ask this again....


What does it mean to "Make Gloriana" NOW? What changes would we expect to be made?


I mean, 32 people voted for it... there must be some idea of what that vote means.

What I can only say here is that give the old players or leaders another chance, probably a month or two to fix the problems Glomdoring has, IF they fail to fix it after the said time, no choice but to let the admin kick in and fix things though I would advice not deleting, destroying, kicking of characters of said Organization, these people are the sole reason Lusternia lives and exists, without us, where will Lusternia go?

As I said, give them another chance and give them time Lady Estarra and the other admins around who are reading this.

And for this vote, let Glomdoring stay the same yet with something new in them and for Lady Viravain... up to you guys what you wanted her to become.

High Priestess of the Moon Farella Lunseer refused to have anything to do with the world during the Taint Wars, and instead sat on Ethereal waiting for the taint to get to them, and when it did, the Serenwilde would sever itself from reality like Ackleberry did rather than face the Taint. She spent the time she could have prepared to fight the Taint speaking with the Fae and watching through her Scrying Pool.

Roweena Nightshade, however, spent a lot of time before the Taint Wars trying to warn the Holy Celestine Empire that Project: Cosmic Hope was a very bad idea. When they held meetings about the project, she was there, though none of the other Communes wished to take part. When the Taint came, they met it certain of their own strength, that their commune was strong enough together to defeat any ill that came to them.

I think these facts support Elryn's view.

Something I remember from the pre-Kethuru/Glom event is that when Viravain cured the forest things became 'lighter' and more lively. Glomdoring always gave off a dark and quiet tone where as in Gloriana we got to see the sunlight on the bridge, the beetles turned to ladybugs I think it was and birds were more inclined to return to the forest. There were paintings in the Black Tower of what we saw, I remember those clearly, but they may have decayed now.

Oh, anyone else remember seeing Gib back to normal? What a cute High Druid!

Hmm, ok thats good evidence.

Fallen's evidence that I know about is his understand of the teachings of Hart and Moon vs the teachings of Crow and Night...

So how were Crow's and Night's teachings different in Gloriana?

I think you're missing the point. Glom IS different then Seren. But the thing is, Glom is acting how Serenwilde is kinda supposed to act, and Seren is acting how Glom should be acting.

If anything, it should be Glom sitting with the 4 villages, not 1. I was told at one time Celest raided the actual forest of Glom, and all glom did was resist. No Retaliation or anything. Now is that the Forest of No Mercy or the Forest of Whimpieness? A Forest of No Mercy would have raided the City of Celest as soon as it had recovered from the recent attack.

And Glomdoring has NOTHING to do with Domination. Otherwise, they'd be competing for villages as fanatically as the other cities/communes, and people wouldn't be SHOUTing their surpirse of Glomdoring taking a village.