In regards to 2.), the change was made not in terms of power lost (which is arguably negligible to both cities and communes given the current status of the nexi), but was instead made in terms of the frustration of having to raise these entities repeatedly within a short time. Raising the cosmic lords and avatars is an arduous and repetitive process, and we don't want that to become a source of constant frustration for players. A similar analogy would be when the sea quest took place every Lusternian month - it was simply too often.

I like all the changes but one: Making the demons/angels talk is HIGHLY annoying.

Might want to talk to your son about that one

I like most of the changes, just a couple concerns:

1) The pool move. First of all, it is now very, very easy to pin Celestians to the pool now.

A single stonewall would make moving a group out impossible until the wall is broken. Formerly 4 was needed.

Nil needs two walls to block it... but Celest can only do icewalls anyway.

Also, one group would be needed to wait outside the room, instead of the four it would take before (unfeasible, though easy to move the group) and the two it would take on Nil.

When breaking a hostile demesne, it could also be harder to hold the room below the pool if the enemy is organized enough to watch it, effectively making it one more hostile room a person has to run across before they reach a significant break point. I guess we'll see how it goes.

2) Is five days too long for invincibility? Kill all the lords/supernals, chances are they'll be raised in about 2 days, giving them 3 days to bring the star or necro back up the strength. If you're persistant, I think the protections could still fall... but it would take a *lot* of consecutive successful raids to pull it off. Again, we'll see. I also think the 5 day invincibility is too generous to the communes. Now, the max damage that can be done to communes is 3000 power every 5 days, which is ludicrously low considering 9000 can be done to cities in the same time with the possibility of losing more to the nexus quest (which communes still don't have). Killing their guards over the five days would probably be more costly to them now. I would suggest lowering the Avatar invincibility to two days instead of the five, though that would still put communes in a significantly better position in that area.

They never left the safety of the pool anyways, so that is not a big deal.

Yeah, thats how come you guys are never killed on Celestia... oh, wait.

Tumble bypasses stonewall

You must have totally missed the word 'group'. Lets be generous and say half of the defenders have tumble. Half of us tumble down to get around the wall. That means we have to regroup on the other side, and let the non-tumblers teleport to us, costing us time, and giving raiders a chance to attack the diminished group.

Exactly you have currents we have walls, walls never pulled you into guards silly

As walls and currents are completely unrelated, they should be balanced independantly. Both are extremely useful.

-Confused- What do you mean four groups, and two groups?? You mean for you to be able to leave the safety of the pool?? We used to have to have 4 groups to surround the pool? We never did that anyways, and you all never sent two groups to the megalith exit rooms on Nil? This part confuses me. Also see above, you all hardly ever left the pool in the first place, save for Geb, Nico and a fewe others who would walk right out and confront us, so that isnt too big of a problem.

No, 4 groups surrounding isn't feasable. Two is, but its unlikely. But now keeping a group below the pool while a few others go around and kill stuff *is* feasable. Thats my point.

Yea, lets see how it goes, I am so happy that currents wont bring you into the guards now, and remember you all can still beckon and summon like usual right?.... Anyways lets see what happens, before we all agree or disagree. I am just glad that the cosmic playing field has finally been more balanced out.

I'm not sure how much of an impact it would have on currents. Currents and whirlpool can still bump you up there. It just makes beckoning harder.

Not really, they may be invincible, but remember Shamarah and Thoros will be more than happy to kill the denziens needed to do the spike quests, you can also clean out our earth essence too, thus keeping us down that way... there are several ways to hinder another city when and if they lose their supernals/lords still.

There's only so long you can do that though. Five days of keeping at least one demon lord down so we can work on the first one(s) again? Unlikely

Morgfyre: Thanks for addressing my concerns, you did it a lot better then Ildaudid. Though I do still wonder about the moral effect of losing 5 beings compared to 3, and losing 9000 power+ compared to 3000 power. To repeat the recurring theme: We shall see

They never left the safety of the pool anyways, so that is not a big deal.

Yeah, thats how come you guys are never killed on Celestia... oh, wait.

We were 90% of the time pulled into the pool, 10% of the time there is a crew up there bold enough to come pick us off, since currents seperate us and whirlpool keeps us from moving out of the room at a high success rate, of course we die up there

Tumble bypasses stonewall

You must have totally missed the word 'group'. Lets be generous and say half of the defenders have tumble. Half of us tumble down to get around the wall. That means we have to regroup on the other side, and let the non-tumblers teleport to us, costing us time, and giving raiders a chance to attack the diminished group.

There is another way too I think that would work, you can figure that out or ask me in Saitama later

Exactly you have currents we have walls, walls never pulled you into guards silly

As walls and currents are completely unrelated, they should be balanced independantly. Both are extremely useful.

True they are both useful, but one is completely bypassable... tumble and crash destroy walls, Nothing but breaking or killing the mage who put currents up destroy currents, and then they can instantly come back up to Celestia and reset effects, (Maybe even under grace, but I am not positive about that) On top of that the mage who melds, has a tendency to stay at the pool.

-Confused- What do you mean four groups, and two groups?? You mean for you to be able to leave the safety of the pool?? We used to have to have 4 groups to surround the pool? We never did that anyways, and you all never sent two groups to the megalith exit rooms on Nil? This part confuses me. Also see above, you all hardly ever left the pool in the first place, save for Geb, Nico and a fewe others who would walk right out and confront us, so that isnt too big of a problem.

No, 4 groups surrounding isn't feasable. Two is, but its unlikely. But now keeping a group below the pool while a few others go around and kill stuff *is* feasable. Thats my point.

Oh, ok I see what you mean now. But with currents being able to break up groups very easily they may not hang out under the pool too much -not sure, again we will see-

Yea, lets see how it goes, I am so happy that currents wont bring you into the guards now, and remember you all can still beckon and summon like usual right?.... Anyways lets see what happens, before we all agree or disagree. I am just glad that the cosmic playing field has finally been more balanced out.

I'm not sure how much of an impact it would have on currents. Currents and whirlpool can still bump you up there. It just makes beckoning harder.

Hopefully now though with currents pulling that it won't randomly choose up, and more likely choose 4 other directions... It was supposed to be nerfed so it wouldn't be used as much to current people into guards, but it was to easy to figure out to move the demense center 3 rooms away from the pool to keep it capable of being used to current people into the guards.


Not really, they may be invincible, but remember Shamarah and Thoros will be more than happy to kill the denziens needed to do the spike quests, you can also clean out our earth essence too, thus keeping us down that way... there are several ways to hinder another city when and if they lose their supernals/lords still.

There's only so long you can do that though. Five days of keeping at least one demon lord down so we can work on the first one(s) again? Unlikely

Unlikely but plausible, and trust me Shammy and Thoros enjoy doing it

In response to 1.) we're aware that this change may not be perfect, and we're going to monitor it and see how it works out. It is certainly a disadvantageous change for defenders of Celestia, but the upside is that it prevents people from being swept into guards via currents. I think Elryn's assessment of the demesne breaking capabilities is fairly accurate in that the enemy will need to sacrifice a plane-wide demesne (and enable you to leave the demesne in 2 steps) for an unbreakable demesne below the PoS. It's something we will continue to monitor.

I just realized that the new setup makes it 100% impossible for currents to pull to the Pool. Now maybe we won't get the weekly Mag complaints about that!

100%?? Currents wont pull up?? If not, great!! and you wont hear about being cheesed into guards, of course you will hear the bickering about how insane currents are at breaking groups apart still though because the are insane

If you meld from northern pillar to eastern pillar, and southern pillar to western pillar with two demesnes (I don't know where the angels are, so I'm assuming that's what you mean), you can still break below the Pool of stars.

You need to stop giving advice when you have no idea either a) how demesnes work how Celestia is shaped.



If melded correctly, you can ONLY break at the pillars.

His point is that the room below the Pool of Stars is still breakable even in that picture, Narsrim. He's not saying the entire demesne can be broken, just that that one room is always breakable, unless there is a single demesne from the north pillar to the south pillar, or the west to the east.

You need to stop giving advice when you have no idea either a) how demesnes work b ) how Celestia is shaped.

His point is that the room below the Pool of Stars is still breakable even in that picture, Narsrim. He's not saying the entire demesne can be broken, just that that one room is always breakable, unless there is a single demesne from the north pillar to the south pillar, or the west to the east.

Its not breakable in that picture that Nars posted.. You can only break it if it wouldn't cut off parts of the demesne.. so in that image, it would not be breakable, because it would seperate two halves of the demesne.. which you can't do. You'd have to start one of the pillars.

Err, look again. The one room below the Pool of Stars CAN be broken, since the room south of the pool and the room west of the pool are connected.