Oh. Um, I'm used to Celest controlling Delport. Pretend they do for the sake of that argument I made.

That's not propaganda. That's called fact.

If only it were always that easy...Unfortunately, sometimes fools do get elected. What is the trouble in clarifying the policy to not allow for the problem to begin with?

Dude, really, stop insulting people

Not much here I want to say, but yes, the war was started in the first place to get Serenwilde to be accountable for it's actions.

As for the trespassing issue, consider this possibility: Large group of raiders assemble on Celestia. Celestine show up, the group disperses. There is no attacking, but the intent was there. In addition, it stops people from just popping in and out of planes or territories to annoy.

Actions of the individual reflect the whole. If you don't believe that, you need to re-examine your life.

If a large group of raiders is intent on attacking Celestia, law or no law, one Celestine showing up isn't going to disperse them. If they're fine with raiding, they're fine with trespassing.

And yes, actions of the individual reflect on the whole, but you're taking it to extremes. If I go to harvest kombu, it doesn't mean Serenwilde wants to start a war, it means I want some goddamn seaweed. It should be up to you to kick me out if it's so important to you, not the Serenwilde to monitor where everyone is and what their enemy status is. If my freedom is going to be that ridiculously restricted, we'll be warring forever and ever. Just because raiders might do something doesn't mean I should be punished for it.

Ahem.

Let's look at it another way, from just a tiny little bit further back in perspective.

Serenwilde puts up with Shamarah killing Fae for a long time. Seren leaders diplomatically protest for ca 10 IG years, Celest effectively say 'The actions of an individual do not reflect the actions or intent of the organisation'. Eventually Lisaera floods Celest, stuff happens, and people get told not to kill Fae.

Very shortly after this, one or two Seren go and kill some angels. Celest says 'Stop him, make it illegal, or it's war'. War ensues.

When looking at ending the war, it now becomes 'The organisation is to be held accountable for nearly every action of an individual'.

I'm not criticising anyone here (Shamarah has his RP, and it's cool by me) in terms of being a 'griefer' or whatever, but I'm kinda into an OOC state of 'Say what again?', as far as the whole 'We're going to punish you all for the actions of one guy' philosophy goes, as it's such a reversal. Why should Serenwilde punish its members for doing stuff Celest doesn't like if Celest isn't going to punish its members in the same situation?

To be honest with you guys, the claim on the Inner Sea (and some other neutral areas) is kinda tentative at best. Trying to enforce 'tresspassing' stuff will just result in an issue-fest over organisational bullying of individuals over neutral territories (I can just see some herbalist winding up with 15 or 16 bullies on his Suspect list, and the ensuing hilarity of multiple harmony curses from Karma), and that takes it OOC, and that's no fun at all for us. Territory - Celestia, fair enough. Villages, definitely. Water - stretching it a bit, but yeah, I can see your point.

The Inner Sea? Sounds like political megalomania with delusions of grandeur to me. You may as well try and claim all the roads around the place.

I never apologise for length.

Bull. If we don't keep a close eye on the sea, the star gets weakened... in a totally IC and not actual way ... or something. But we definitely want Ladantine to stay down, and if we don't defend the sea, he doesn't stay down. So you are 100% wrong.

As a bit of a counterpoint, take when Narsrim was still in Serenwilde, enjoying his raids on Earth and Nil. I know there'd been some major conflicts in the past, but things had been mostly cooled of for a good deal of time, and yet Narsrim kept at it because it was his RP (something to do with Terentia I think, don't really care about the details). I can't speak for others, but I certainly never viewed this as an act of war by Serenwilde. Sure, it was annoying that they didn't/couldn't keep him reigned in, but I always ascribed it to him being Celest's junkie more than anything.

Or another example, Aerenna and her raids on Angkrag. She came in to try to free the miners, sometimes get some, sometimes not. And yet there was never war with Serenwilde because of that or because of our counter raids. More of a "watch out, Aerenna's around and might stir up trouble."

Those kinds of raids by individuals are just that, individual acts. While they may not reflect favourably on the organization, sometimes there's not much the organization can or will do about it. The organization gong to war tends to be more organized, getting everyone together to create problems, going after things beyond normal raids (like it not being enough to kill a few angels, but we've got to take the plane and hold it, or going after lords/avatars).

If Magnagora had made the demands that Celest is of Serenwilde, they'd've been at an active war for the past couple if in game decades.

Exactly. If we all jump to go to war at the slightest provocation, either we're never in conflict, or we're always at war.

Except it was Celest winning pretty consistantly

Really, I don't see this new law limiting. If you want war, you can continue it, so there shouldn't be any limitations or forced peace. Just forces you to accept consequences for your actions, instead of running like a whenever someone or a group who can kill you appears in the local area and getting off free.



There's always going to be war in the game. Don't war with people who can crush you like a bug

This entire thread should be in game and not on the forums. These are ALL IC arguements.

QFT.

I still don't understand why Celest players won't consider the implications if they put the same pressure and conditions on Magnagora. Someone has to step up and tell them to either get over the fact that Magnagora isn't their only enemy, or at least to deal with opposing nations in a way that doesn't completely neuter the game environment to their advantage.


No they're not.

You have a fair point, but you're not actually seeing mine. There is a difference between 'territory' and 'an area that we have a vested interest in, but no IC interaction with the denziens/org leaders in that region which would provide a feasible and logical reason for us to try and protect it, such as them asking for our help'.

Yes, Celest has an interest in the Inner Sea as quests that can affect Celest, both positively and negatively, are there. But Magnagora also has an interest in the Inner Sea in that there are quests that can affect Magnagora there in a similar fashion. By your rationale, then, Magnagora also has a territorial interest in the Inner Sea.

See where I'm going with this?

You say that like there's something wrong with it.

Celest wants to destroy the taint. It has other enemies and recognizes that, but they can wait. Taint removal is priority #1, and Serenwilde is standing in the way. So it naturally wants Serenwilde to step down so it can continue killing tainted.



I wouldn't call that "tentative at best" though. And by you're rationale, neither commune would have a claim over faethorn, no one would have claim over the seas, and Mag wouldn't have claim over catacombs (pretty sure they do enemy for hunting that). But everyone does that. Rationale apparently doesn't work.

Don't forget that Mag wouldn't have a claim over the Presidio or Shallach, and that Celest wouldn't have a claim over the merians.

I get the IC reasoning for such an arrangement.

There are OOC considerations for forcing other nations to abandon -their- emnities though, just because Celestian players don't feel like they are as fun.

We all know that the point of all of this is to win Lusternia. The last boss is Magnagora and no one likes being stuck on the bad guy before the last boss.

Translation: Abandon rp because the game can't be won.