Are you trying to ignore logic and past events? There WASN'T A WAR. Allowing people to raid got you one. Serenwilde was asked nicely to stop. Then they were asked meanly to stop. Then they were threatened if they didn't stop. There was no stopping, so war commences. So what could giving up on the war possibly accomplish, other then letting you all do whatever you feel like?

Obviously Celest has more fighters, and more high tier combatants at the moment than Serenwilde. I do think they would be stronger if it came to a freeforall situation.

I don't think in any stretch of the imagination you could say Celest was winning. We weren't significantly damaged, Celest wasn't significantly damaged.

What Serenwilde needed to do was say, "Ixion, stop raiding while we work out something with Celest". Then their leadership would have negotiated with Celest players, and those players would have refused any compromise, and we would still have had war.

Now, Serenwilde has capitulated in full, when all they needed to do was say, "Everyone, stop fighting Celest until we decide to go on the offensive for a change." Instead, we have some vague law that allows the leadership to skirt taking a decisive stand and react in hindsight to any perceived injustices by other nations.



I don't like that one person can cause that much damage to a nation. But if they can, is it the fault of the organization to which they belong, which offered no support or encouragement for that individual vendetta, or is it the fault of the mechanics which allow one person to accomplish so much? Which should we as a community of players address?

ICly, we could create an environment where ANY action you do against an org causes war. ANY 'violent' interaction is either immediately censored and punished, or causes a huge segment of the playerbase to be drawn into an extended unpleasantness they couldn't care less about. The nation you belong to is everything, you have no individual character development that involves any conflict that is not officially sanctioned and encouraged by 100 other people. Lusternia will continue to suffer from 'griefing' tactics where stronger nations completely dictate to and destroy the weaker, or where individuals can have vastly significant effects on an entire segment of the playerbase.

OOCly, we could recognise the problems and work together to fix them, rather than perpetuate them or make everyone else as miserable as one segment might be because of them. The cosmic planes -are- being addressed, I highly anticipate that part of the result will be that individuals will be unable to have the same impact they can now.

Isn't it a better idea to work together to improve the experience for all players, rather than work against each other to make everyone equally dissatisfied and miserable, and bring the whole playerbase down to the lowest point?

Then why were Serenwilders on forums complaining about how much the war was bringing them down? Why are people pleading for people to lay off raiding?

The only reason that Serenwilde wasn't damage was that there IS. NO. NEXUS. QUEST for you guys. Other then knocking off 1k by killing an avatar, there isn't much damage that can be done.

We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the new law of Serenwilde's which gave Celest a decision to make about whether the law would satisfy their demands for the safety of their angels or not. Instead of getting back in touch with the Moonhart Circle they just posted more demands.

Please, PLEASE tell me you're joking. While a lot of this could go on perfectly IC, this isn't in the least bit OOC. Do you honestly want a game where whoever happens to be stronger can bully anyone they want, just because you happen to be on top at the moment?

I could post quite a few messages I got from Celestians saying the war was bringing them down too.

Who cares? Is that all you can take from what I said? Arguing semantics about what a few random players said, or what one group of combatants can accomplish over another.

You are placing far to much on the nation with the offending member in it, and not enough on the nation the action is directed against.

Example:Diamante likes to raid, glomdoring leadership claimed/claims to be completely out of and above all conflicts(innocent pacifist nation). Serenwilde was the recipient. If Celest had been the recipient things would have turned out quite different. The fact that glomdoring "controls their members much more then the seren" is meaningless in this situation. It's the Recipient nation's actions that determain the outcome.

I agree that organizations are responsible for their members. But organizations are also responsible for themselves. Celest seems to be trying to shirk their responsibility and put all of it onto the other organizations.

Mine would be one of them. I would love for this war to end. But if Serenwilde won't ban their citizens from killing our stuff, then I'll take one for the team.

I'm in favor of closing this thread. This could be better done IC. Nothing is getting done on this thread but most of Serenwilde butting heads with me, which, while very fun, is rather pointless. I think all that can be said has been. No resolution will ever be found. Serenwilde wants to do whatever it pleases, which it is in its right to do. Celest can't accept people killing their angels, and will do whatever it takes to prevent it, which is also acceptable. There is no in-between that can be found. Both orgs are quite allowed to do what they are doing, and both orgs will accept the consequences that come with it. Tada, whole thread summarized, minus the bias. I'm amazing.

I agree. If you cannot contribute anything here on this OOC forum, please... take it somewhere else?

I feel this point is solid. In Lusternia, there are no war mechanics for Celest to employ against Serenwilde. If Celest killed all 3 Avatars -50- times in a row, there would be no "real" damage to Serenwilde as 150,000p doesn't equate to much when your nexus has over 1,000,000 power. In the end, Celest is incapable, by design, of inflicting any "serious" damage.

However, Celest has inflicted, to the best of its ability, a fair amount of damage proportional to what is possible. Given this, we have done well and given this understanding, there is little room to argue otherwise. While people can make claims that Serenwilde was never "hurt," I know for a fact that several members of the Moondancers were. Ethereal Serenwilde was heralded as a fortress - the Moon Avatars as untouchable. Pre-Celest attacks, Demon Lords and Supernals had fallen... but the Moon Avatars were never slain. There was also a pride issue involved where many Moondancers failed to protect their beloved as their foes crushed them and said beloved simutaneously.

On an OOC perspective, I believe certain members of Serenwilde posted on forums and bitched -every single- time we raided. If you weren't venomously pissed off, you wouldn't bother.



What exactly can Celest do to stop a single, skilled combatant who wants to kill angels that has a cubix, conglutination, etc. Celest has fought Ixion. Celest has killed Ixion many times; however, that doesn't do anything to Ixion other than maybe annoy him for 5 seconds.

This is the same argument Glomdoring made against me, which was always true. There is nothing they could possibly do to stop me from killing Daughters of Night or stealing Fae. Even when I didn't attack them and they swarmed me, I usually got away (after picking off a lone Daughter, stealing 10+ Fae, etc). If I died, I'd be back later... big deal.

In the end, the strongest power available to any organization when it comes to a single, powerful threat is to make it a problem for the other organization. Organizations are far easier to punish, fight, and change than a single, bull headed combatant.

When someone is raiding that much, I don't find it wrong to talk to his org. But people are talking doing -anything-, even simple trespass, which is total . War is an answer, but it shouldn't answer everything.

As I said, it's all about the receiving nation. In celest's case, war being the answer to everything, rather then diplomacy works very well, because in that way, they win all their political fights without actually having to fight them. Such a policy will continue to work extremely well for them, until power shifts at least.

Edit:Edited to update to the squirrel's edit.

In the mean time, for celest, it's much easier to keep a group of active fighters active than keep a group of nations happy, why change? It's a fair strategy, not one I'd employ due to personal preference, but then again I'd never be roped into a Leadership position unless it was the only option (ex: Every other Moondancer dieing IRL or something)

At the moment, Celest is tense. When such dies down, I imagine the chances of war breaking out because someone decided to harvest kombu in the Inner Sea and got caught to be slim to none.

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I also think concerns for this foster a good amnesty for persons enemied during the war agreement. You aren't trespassing if you aren't enemied.

I've been Kelpie-enemied since beta. I AM still an enemy, as far anyone want to randomly gank me cares.

We have a few mythical and trans influencers milling about, you should tell them to get you amnesty.

6 pages on a topic called Serenwilde policy... what exactly is the OOC issue that can't be talked about in game?

I agree with Charune. Lets take it IC, that way only Ista will have a headache and not me.

To clarify, the treaty bugs the hell out of me as well. More people voted against the proposed treaty, than voted against the INITIAL referendum, yet the Circle still went ahead with it. Bizarre.