Hello, everyone. Because I'm told that I can't issue about long-standing, complex, ongoing problems, I'm instead going to deal with this one by introducing you, the public, to a lady I'll arbitrarily call Stephanie. Say, "Hi," Stephanie.



In her every day life, Stephanie is well known, well loved, and well adjusted. She had many friends, and has no trouble moving confidently from crowd to crowd making more, but Stephanie has two poorly kept sexual secrets. First, she's bisexual. Second, she's the player behind one of the ladies in Exarius' harem.

As a bisexual, Stephanie has more than once role-played homosexual romance in Lusternia with one character or another. Stephanie, have you ever been harassed here for being with another woman?



I'd thought so, though I couldn't quote you a rule on it. So despite the fact that homosexuality is a favorite whipping boy of conservative Christians, Lusternia doesn't stand for people giving you a hard time over such relationships?



But the same hasn't proven true for role-playing a character in a polygamous relationship, even though some of the greatest men of the Old Testament had many wives?



Have you tried issuing any of them?



Who says those things?



I'm sorry I couldn't make things better for you. We've been playing this out for longer than most ordinary MUD marriages last. With all the players who try to pretend our relationship doesn't even exist, much less have value, I'd be willing to abandon the more sophisticated pride-culture role-play and just say, "Hey! These are my wives!" Maybe they'd take that seriously. I know we can't get it on the official books, since people have been begging for years just to found families with more than two siblings, but...



Some are. Estarra seems to see me as an asset. Don't know which view would win.



So where does that leave us?



Well, thank you, Stephanie. Are there any last insights you'd like to share before you go?



I'm not giving up the harem role-play, because I can't do asexual, playing a common Cassanova winds up hurting too many women, and my RL wife is deeply uncomfortable with my role-playing monogamous relationships on MUDs ("One woman is a rival. More than one, subordinates."; a view comes from dealing with women we thought were friends and went psycho stalker.) This is all that works for me.

So does anyone else know where that leaves us?

(And please deposit all hate mail on the subject in a separate thread on the Idiots forum. We already know you hate us, so don't turn this attempt at problem solving into another flame fest.)

Don't give it up. Issue regardless of whether it is direct or indirect harassment.

Then continue quiet, private, consensual RP of whatever inclination you desire.

Edit: I would try to avoid further insinuations that half the admin are out to get you though.

EDIT: nevermind.

True that people choose what they wanted to be, don't give it up because you've already written a history in the game.

Harassing someone is issuable so do so if you must.

Feh. That sums up my thoughts upon this matter.

You have your Palace, you have your Pride. I'm one of those that don't agree with the whole harem concept, but heck. Do what you want to within the rules of the game, I do what I want to within the rules of the game, and everyone is happy.

Obviously, polygamy is not a concept that sits well with... whoever these nebulous persons are, (for clarification, I am very much against polygamy and harems, but why does my opinion matter here?), but in the end, if they don't accept you for what you are? Why bother with them? You can't force them to like you.

In the end, it feels to me that they aren't crossing any harassment lines by talking IC'ly about someone, as far as I tell. But then again, I'm not an admin, so all I can throw out here is opinion.

If you wish to discuss things further, you know how to reach me. Assuming you can still stomach talking to me.

Alright... Lets see if I can sum up what I'm thinking here.

First, as long as all the parties you're roleplaying with have consented to it, I don't think playing in a harem is all that big a deal.

Second, the 'indirect' harassment you mentioned sounds a bit like something that would happen in high school. Hurtful maybe, if you let it be. If you'd just ignore it, they'd likely get bored and stop. Unless it's more serious than you've mentioned here in which case...

Third, if you're being seriously harrassed about your consentual roleplay - to the point of OOCness, do issue it.

Fourthly, you've made a roleplay choice. Roleplay choices come with roleplay consequences. Your character being in a harem is going to cause reactions in others, some good, some bad and all out of your control - that's what roleplaying in a group is all about. If you want to be able to control the reactions of others, you probably want to be in a play where there's a ready-made script.

I've got to go to work now.

You describe the situation where you got stalked by people you roleplayed with, did you make them clear beforehand it was going to be totally IC and no OOC involved? This is very important and you have to make that really sure beforehand, because if one party crosses the line things do indeed can get ugly, certainly since you are married IRL.

What I don't get however is why you are getting dirt for this? I don't agree on polygamy in the real world either (mostly concerning my own situation and possible abuse towards friends) but if you want to do it in a roleplayed universe...why not? Of course, the question lies with what your reason is. Is it to get attention? Is it because you want to try something out without upsetting people? There can be many reasons, but if yours is a honest one, then try to show people how you think and feel about this. Of course they must be willing to listen

If people act like little children however about the whole thing, it can be annoying to show that you're doing something serious and that it just isn't someone trying to get his kicks over the net. I can only say try talking to the ones that go to far in bothering you about it and see if they can understand. If nothing works out, either retreat the situation to a private enviroment or drop it, depending on what's worth most to you.

Hope that advice is a bit useful

I find it hard to believe that you were told you couldn't issue over harassment simply because it's subtle and long term. It's more likely that they looked at the details and said it doesn't qualify. Or you're just trying to pressure someone. Who knows?

You have the right to roleplay any sort of consensual relationship that you want. You do not have the right to expect universal approval, or even universal understanding.

If a main character is taking abuse for what an alt does, the player behind the main character did something wrong. No one has ever pinpointed one of my alts without being told directly. Ever. My characters even sit in the mainstream, so they're seen by a ton of people. Never! The harem is a fairly reclusive, insular group. Does the average player even get enough exposure to them to know the difference? Likely not.

Furthermore, the request that main characters avoid the harem doesn't do a whole lot for its reputation. You might see it as protecting them, but trust me when I say that it makes you look like you're out for mudsex with novices fresh from the Portal. The alts have no credibility to protect themselves or each other with. Because of this method, you have in fact branded yourself and your friends as deviants to be feared, avoided, or attacked.

Polygamy, not something I'd participate in, but if it's consensual and what not, not sure why people have such an issue with it. The creator of this comic, www.pasteldefender.com, is in one, and I believe I met her and one of her spouses once at my store. From what I read, they have all been together for a good long time, and are just as happy as a two-person marriage could be. From my brief meeting, I got the feeling they were part of a loving and caring family. Something I go "Awwww" at everytime I think about it.

I might suggest when they make alts, they don't start them off at the age of 16-19. When Reiha's kids came out of the portal at 16, people made fun of me for "stalking the portals" (these were prearranged adoptions with alts of other players). I think I still owe Dvyrus a chasm. Or was it Ashteru.

Maybe people have more of an issue with a perceived problem of: a bunch of women "bowing down" to one man, being "owned and controlled" so to speak. I should create a harem, allowing both men and women of course and see what happens, though I'm sure I would lose my GM position and hopefully-to-be-fiance-again before I finished sneezing. Not to mention no one would want to join it, anyway.

And while I can understand how you and your harem members feel persecuted, it might turn people off when you talk about this without any mention of it in an immediate, preceding discussion. I remember during our talk about your gold, you spoke of the quote in your signature, and I was like, "Whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't critizing you!" And then you explained you were merely frustrated, which is okay And I'm always more than willing to chat or listen, but it just might rub off on others the wrong way - and if they felt any negative feelings about your lifestyle before, it will intensify.

I've been in two polyamorous relationships, with no problems, so I'm not at all against the idea. The thing that gets to me about the whole thing, though, is how we never hear from anyone except you, Exarius. It's your harem, your wives, etc, etc. I've never heard from anyone else involved, never had anyone claim a part of that relationship except for you. I can understand why this is; many people don't use the forums, and I never see you in game. But that's the impression I get.

Now, I've never been in a relationship quite like yours, Exarius. I still can't understand how someone can settle for part of a person. Unless you're an absolutely amazing person, you can't be giving your all to three, four, or five people at the same time. My relationships have worked because they weren't many-to-one relationships. They've always been many-to-many; I don't get all of your time, but I have someone else who will fill that gap, and the vice versa. If your way works for you, though, go for it.

Also, with a many-to-one relationship like yours, it can very easily appear that you're controlling them, owning them, or in some other way abusing the relationship. Hiding it, even in an attempt to protect people, only exacerbates the issue.

Basically, I can understand why you're defensive and reclusive. But you have to understand that people's reactions are equally understandble. And it really, really doesn't help when you imply that most of the gods are out to get you, unless you can show us plenty of proof to back that claim up.

Also, it really doesn't help in the least that you use the word 'harem'. It makes people think of a bunch of half-naked women cloistered away, fanning you with palm fronds and feeding you grapes. Women in a harem usually aren't portrayed as having much in the way of freedom or free will or unique character. It's no wonder people jump to conclusions when they find out about it, especially if they don't know the women.

Spoken like someone who was never harassed in high school. The thing about long-term, subtle harassment is that it's hard to "just ignore" quiet jabs day after day after day. Because you have to explain the whole history to get anyone to understand why the single statement is hurtful, it's easy for the person doing the harassing to claim that the victim is either "overreacting" or "blowing things out of proportion."

One of the most painful parts of this form of harassment is the constant feeling of frustration that you just can't get people on the outside to understand that you are being targetted.

It usually takes an extreme act like attempted suicide or bringing a gun to school to get people to actually pay attention to the fact that you are a target. (Unless your lucky like a friend of mine who found the journal of the harasser detailing the long-term plan to cause her to commit suicide.)

I know this is off-topic, but having endured a harassment campaign from an ex-boyfriend (in college, actually, not high school) I cannot let the attitude that people being harassed should just suck-it-up and ignore the harasser go uncommented on.

It's easy to say 'just ignore him/her' when you aren't the target.

Being constantly on guard for an attack is extremely emotionally wearing.

Spoken like someone who assumes much. I wasn't aware you were following me around in high school and had access to whatever was going on in my head and could therefore speak with such athority on how I might have been treated or what I felt. I'd totally have said Hi if I'd known you were there.

I realized in high school that I could do one of two things; I could let other people get me down, or I could not. That's not to say that sometimes I didn't get my feelings hurt, but suicide? Take a gun to school? No. I would not let a bunch of high school kids get to me that way.

And you'll notice I said that if the harrassment was bad, they should be issued. Bad is subjective, I do realize.

I know that me ignoring people never got them to leave me alone in Highschool, heh.

I wish that had worked.

Even in my earliest days of MUDing, I would always make sure to have the OOC conversation with anyone I would RP relationships with, to be sure they understood explicitly that I was married in the most extreme of happiness and that this would never, ever, ever go offline or override that in any way.

Along the way, there were still minor disasters of varying sorts that would make me feel more and more wary of RPing traditional romance, and that all came to a head with a woman who my wife had herself actually chatted with quite a bit, and we'd both chatted with her husband, and we thought we were all friends.

This woman had always pestered for IC monogamy from me, and would ocassionally have these little breakdowns about it, but I'd dry her tears and hold the line because I'd already gotten burned enough as was. Then the player of my character's only other lady friend of the time had to go away on an extended business trip, and the remaining lady got a serious dose of having my online time all to herself. When that came to an end, she became more and more petulant and shrill about needing me for herself, until she just exploded one morning into a full tantrum over it.

Finally, in the middle of it all, she just flat blurted out the assertion that she was more important to me than my wife... while my wife was reading the tantrum over my shoulder, no less.

So, yeah, things were as crystal clear as rainwater, and still I would get this stuff.

Offline, I'm 150% behind the whole monogamy thing. My life revolves around my wife and my son. But that's a big part of why I can't do pretend monogamy. It makes me feel creepy to pretend that sort of relationship with anyone but her.



Believe it or don't. I was told point blank, issue a specific person about a specific incident, or don't bother issuing.

Speaking from personal experience, ignoring many of those that don't like my way of life works just dandy for me. If I didn't ignore things, on the other hand, I know I would be a screaming neurotic mess by now. Or at least, -more- of a screaming neurotic mess, if you'd rather.

The thing is, you have to draw a line about the things you can change, and the things you can't. You -can't- stop people talking badly about you in front of you. Nor should you, really, if you think about it. If the harrassment crosses a line, then it crosses a line. And we have the issue system here to deal with that, and if not that, friends to smoosh them/destroy their political reputation/so on. OOC'ly, it gets more complex, but we won't go into that here.

Apples and oranges, baby, apples and oranges.

If you feel your reputation is being trashed because you're in a harem, I'm not sure what to tell you. Holding an unpopular opinion is not going to win you friends. Harems, loving the Taint in Celest, so on, so forth, all will cause you IC stress of some kind. If that translates to too much OOC stress... well... so did being killed by Celestians a thousand and a half times. And in the end, they weren't violating any rules of the game. As much as I may have disagreed, as long as they don't break the rules, they don't.

My two cents. Take 'em or leave 'em as you see fit.

I would like to fourth or fifth... or whateverth the ignoring doesn't do diddly.

Universal approval and understanding were never expected nor required. Cross-character hatred and harassment for the ladies involved, those were more than I could predict.

And maybe you've managed to hide your alts, but that's far from a universal ability. Everyone has tells that can give them away in a RP situation. Believe me, the ladies of the harem would LOVE to participate in the mainstream game, but they would just get so much grief over it that they never could. So they'd make the alts and people would either find out about the alts jump to wild conclusions about the alts, go nuts over it, and keep being nasty to mainstream characters they thought had alts in the harem.

You're right that it's resulted in an insular community for the harem that works in favor of those wishing to spread hatred and misunderstanding. I've been trying to encourage change in that regard, but every time the ladies try to get active in the larger community, someone does something reprehensible enough to make them regret even trying.

It's all well and good to say they should get out more, but until they're afforded the same personal protections as, say, homosexual couples, or at least protections somewhere in the same ballpark, I'm afraid that's not going to happen.





Seventh or eighthed or whatever. I had to deal with that sort of harassment from at least first grade on, and yeah, eventually I learned to ignore it and suck it up, but it never stopped, and it turned me into this walled off, emotionally crippled and self absorbed jerk who had to unlearn everything he knew about dealing with people when he got to college, in order to have anything resembling a life.

These two points I want to comment on. Point the first: What are you suggesting? Making 'harem' a 'bad' word along with racial and homosexual slurs? The ability to point at what you or the victim perceive as 'problem people', and have them removed/punished?

The second: And I got judgemental and socially self-confident by ignoring those sorts of people. I guess different strokes, for different folks, right?

Well, if you want constructive criticism... I think it's still mostly *your* attitude about this that causes problems, Exarius. The word "harem" itself, as has been stated earlier, has MANY negative connotations. You've argued loudly that you are different, that you "take women in who have been burned by a controlling male who drove them into your arms." Yet, the word "Harem" is the ultimate and final control and domination over the group stuffed into that harem. One person owns them. One person controls them. They have no life, nothing beyond pleasing the master.

You're a smart enough guy, I'm sure you realize and understand this. You're representing what you so loudly state you hate. I don't understand why. I know one of your friends posted here on the forums that you enjoy being a polarizing character, that you enjoy being the center of controversy... is this the reason?

Representing something that many people find reprehensible, even if you actually *aren't* representing it, will earn quite a bit of distaste. I don't really understand why that's being taken out on the others... but apparently it is. I'm sorry if you find this to be harsh-- but it's what I see happening. You're thriving in a controversial role and others are getting caught up in it.

If you want things to change... modify your attitude somewhat, MOSTLY on the forums. It's kind of a shame that the forums are where you have to represent yourself, but this is where you come to be defensive and this is where most of us hear details... details which you generally bring up yourself. The forums SHOULDN'T be affecting IC actions, but they do somewhat nonetheless.

I don't think that means don't issue. I would take that to mean don't issue and say 'everyone is against us, make them all stop!'.

Obviously there are specific incidents, so just compile a list no matter how small and pass those along. If they -are- too small, you'll find out.

Edit: You should take in another guy, that would make fewer people assume there is some sort of excessive machismo at work, and that you dominate the others.