Connotations are often even MORE important than literal meanings. I can think of a couple of extremely derogetory descriptions for people who's original literal meaning is perfectly harmless - but because over time they became connected with the derogetory meaning, the words have become ugly things.

Life is often about perception more than reality.

Only reason I did that is because I was annoyed about being kicked in the back. The other seven years I just ignored it, and was totally fine.

Stop with the hate long enough to ask Isluna just how hard it's been to find a man who would treat her with half the respect I did when she was in the harem. She left on the best of terms and with my blessing, trying to escape the harassment. Then finally she finds one man she's confident is going to let her be herself, and the day after she marries Stagar he flies into a homicidal rage that she's sitting around designing a bloody apron with me.

Does the harem come with a veneer of possessiveness? Yes. That's called "family".

Does it include some objectification? Yes. That's called "passion". Rail against it all you want, but men and women both actually want to be treated like sex objects, and tend to wonder what's wrong with them when they aren't.

I know you don't want to hear this, but I play the alpha male because countless women yearn for a man who'll play that role for them. It's not politically correct, but it's normal and natural, an ancient genetic drive to find someone strong enough to protect their children. So I ham it up and they ham it up and it's fun. But at the end of the day, it's just a game, and we're all just friends, and one of them is as likely to observe I'm up much too late and order me to shut off the computer and go to bed as anything.

Your pardon, but I can't for the life of me see that as being worse than murder.

In an IC context, we live in a world where dominance is a high, if not the highest, virtue. Divinity is the mark of a soul refined by dominance over others. Life is transient and governed by higher powers, not by a balance of mothers and murderers. On the other hand, the Powers That Be, most notably the same ones that determine who lives and dies, do in fact discriminate against polygamy and homosexual unions. In Lusternia, yes, murder is the lesser offense. Sorry.

You've left Xenthos' objection largely unaddressed. Aren't you the one doing this to your friends? Before you respond defensively (actually, I'm pretty sure you will anyways, this is just so I can say I told you so afterwards), he who provokes a response is more responsible for a situation than the one who responds. If you brandish a gun and threaten to kill people, you can't press assault charges when someone takes you out. When you refuse to comply with law enforcement, you can't claim police brutality when you're manhandled and thrown into the back of a cruiser. When you spout sectarian nonsense, you can't claim freedom of speech when the backlash drowns out your voice. Actually, in America, if you insult someone frequently enough, your legal protection is waived when someone turns around and breaks your nose--very much a disproportionate response. Now ask yourself--are you creating the atmosphere that causes them to be chased? Do you subconsciously encourage behavior that results in the identification of alts? Do you create the barriers that make them seem like pariahs? Do you provide fodder for the rumor mill?

That kind of ego really me off. Your eyes must be brown from the backed up bull .

Though I don't have one, I sort of doubt families think of possessing each other. While I may be naive in the carnal universe, I seriously doubt that all women want is to be possessed, genetic drive or no. As I am woman, I don't yearn for your type, but disdain it completely.

I've met other women IC that feel the same way, have quit the Aslaran clan because they got tired of dealing with your attitude. Get over yourself, sheesh.

Here's some advice to whomever was Exarius's original post about.

During me playing Lusternia, a lot of people insulted my characters. Cuber, Aerenna, you name it. Mostly those from whatever faction was an enemy at that time. And I'm talking about names WAY worse than just "that harem girl". But still, they weren't obscene or discrimintory, so I didn't had the right to issue. Hell, Marcalo called my character a whore once, and I didn't see him punished. But still, does it made me leave Lusternia? No. I suicided my characters but not because of that.

So, in short. This may sound harsh, but GROW SOME MENTAL RESILIENCE. Do you cry all day if someone calls you a wimp in RL too?

Seconded (to Cuber). I'm largely a lurker, so I don't even expect any of this to matter eeeeeven a teensie bit to you, Exarius, but it's a touchy subject for a lot of people. Just a fact. If you play with that kind of fire, you might get a little burned. People just aren't comfortable with it, and that's the world we live in today.

The way to change their minds is NOT through holier-than-thou speeches with creative use of quotes on a forum for some internet text game. Tolerate their intolerance, do for them what they aren't doing for you. I'm not saying you should just, y'know, take all the crap that people fling your way, but understand why they're doing it. It sucks, yeah, but it's gonna be happening until everyone here is in the dirt.

It's very difficult not to suspect this is just paranoia and unwarranted feelings of persecution, Exarius. For one thing, usually you have to be pretty blatant for someone to figure out your alts. Most people aren't sitting there analysing speech patterns to determine if, yes, this new character is in fact person X whom they slightly want to marginalise. And if you do something to give away your identity... whatever ensues is pretty much your fault. You can choose to deal with it or make another alt and avoid repeating your mistakes.

I'm moreover really suspicious of the claim that there are people playing Lusternia who are so viciously disgusted by polygamy that they would engage in a campaign of covert harrassment against the players who RP it.

I would know nothing about the lifestyle you and your friends choose to RP if you didn't insist on bringing it up again and again in the name of "defending" it. If you want to avoid snide comments, you could do both with keeping a lower profile and with sounding less defensive about it.

I have a feeling that these are the main thought patterns of Exarius. Or at least that's what I see from his posts:

1. If someone doesn't like me (me as in Exarius), it means they are out to get me! And obviously a part of some conspiracy.

2. EVERY woman in the world thinks exactly in the same way that the women I know. After all, they're more or less all the same, no?

3. I have a wife and children, which makes me a living saint and automatically better than those who do not have such a family.

Just a thought:

Maybe the way something is discussed, and the nature of the discourse, has more of an impact on any feelings of positivity or negativity than the actual action that may have prompted the discussion?

About everything people are saying about the connotations and history of the word "Harem":

Lets take a step back. See this wall? We like to call it the IC/OOC line. From what you guys are saying, it seem some guy on the OOC side dug a hole in the wall, and shoved a lot of history books and papers on the subject of Harems through this hole, and some person on the IC side picked them up, read them, and they have all of a sudden completely changed he meaning of the word Harem, even though, to a Lusternian, it's be a load of ficticious nonsense.
Some guy, however, did not dig a hole in the wall. No Lusternians have any idea about the precedents for the word "Harem".

Imagine Lusternia is real. Imagine we are asking a genuine person from Lusternia what a Harem is. Think about what they will say. Ask if they think a Harem is bad. There would be no reason fro them to say yes. If they do say yes, ask why. See if their answer is valid. I doubt it will be.

Blame the forums.

Just to add some fuel to Xenthos' fire...





I have seen Exarius approxmately 4 times in the entirity of my playing of Lusternia. a "view" counts as anytime i looked and they were in the room (but only once per room) or they walked in where I was (only once). Being killed when I enter the room negates the count.

Exarius I never ever ever ever ever ever ever would have know anything about you, or your harem IC if you did not spread the word around so much IC... just pointing back what Xenthos said.

Love-mimi

Exactly. 'Abnormal' or 'deviant' sexuality is a common threads throughout both ancient mythology and art.

That said, to get somewhat back on topic, Exarius is complaining about people giving him a hard time.

If the people involved are creating alts to give you crap, that's clearly not really on through the game's rules. If not, and they're expressing distaste, there's not much you can do about it, as a RP dislike of polygamy is as valid a RP as a polygamist one, and both points of view are equally valid. Neither should supercede the other. There are boundaries that shouldn't be stepped over - profanity, for instance - and if they're being crossed, then it is a problem. Otherwise, it's just a situation inherent to your RP. If you don't like it, stop doing it, otherwise, you're fine.

As far as the discussion's being about the whole shebang being an OOC imposition of values into an IC situation, I'd have to disagree. Even in the pre-Christian Roman Empire there were monogamous heterosexuals, and it's fairly certain that some of them were vocal in their opposition to other lifestyles - just because certain societal elements or behaviours are present at any given time does not mean that you must support, participate, or enjoy them yourself.

What it basically boils down to, is, to go for a pithy soundbite - you make your bed, you lie in it, whether it's got 1 woman or 100.

Apparently you aren't even taking the time to read our replies, at least a lot of them, because most of them are discussing it in an OOC context-- the same context in which he brought this topic up.

Please at least show us that much courtesy. My posts have been entirely focused on the OOC aspect, and I've even stated that Xen, ICly, knows nothing of any of this.

There are no history books, nobody is arguing that there is... except you bringing it up in order to say that it doesn't exist.

I've been thinking whether or not to say anything here. Probably a mistake to do so, but we'll see.

First off, I'm descended from a polygamous family, four or five generations back. I don't see anything wrong with what they did or their family life, or anything like that. Would I do it? Probably not, it's stressful enough for me to try and manage a single relationship, never mind more than one.

From an IC perspective, it's already been fairly well established that there's nothing wrong with a polygamous relationship. Everyone being shards of a divine, they'll take after them, and look at all the interesting things the divine get up to relationship wise, plus the aforemention Dracnari in the Nomad camp. So, short of a character having had a bad personal experience with polygamy, there is really no reason for IC harassment. OOC harassment and cross-character harassment should not be happening, shouldn't even need to say that.

From an OOC perspective, I still don't see what the problem with polygamy is, providing it is still a loving caring relationship. People complain about the objectifying of women, but that's not a problem exclusive to polgamous relationships. There are lots of times where both men and women get objectified, the most easily identifiable of which are in situations of abuse - people thinking they can do with their partner as they please because they belong to them. That pretty much invalidates the use of that argument, since it applies to many monogamous relationships as well. And to further the point, it's not been that long since slavery and recognition of women as persons under law in our now 'enlightened' countries, now there's objectifying people.

As for connotations with the word harem, for the most part that seems to be due to a lack of understanding of the middle-eastern cultures by the western world. It's very different from what we have true, but instead of finding out about it, we make assumptions and pass those onto our children, letting them build up over time so that they become 'fact'. I don't put much stock in the whole half-naked women in a room being treated as sex-objects theory. Was/is it done? Probably, yes, but I would not think that it's the rule until I've done a lot of research on the subject, but to be frank, I don't care enough about it to find out.

Anyways, better stop now, since no one will read with how long it is anyways...

Do some research on Chinese emperors, I believe... and an entire city that could only be entered by the Emperor, his eunuchs, and those of the harem. Please don't think that it's strictly a Middle Eastern thing... it's been something that's been a part of many cultures-- hence the "thousands of years" comment I made.

And again, for the fourth time, I will state that the largest problem is not with the relationship so much as the *portrayal* he presents, due to his love for controversy.

Yeah, the Forbidden City, although I'm not certain of the details of it.

The portayal I'm not sure about. I've seen no portrayal of it in-game at all, since they stay out of the light there. I guess I see the portrayal that he wants on the forums as mostly him versus those nay-saying the relationship, although I don't see as many of those around here as people who also enjoy controversy and debates (Admit it, we all do ).

Should actually have mentioned that if the primary concern is for the persons involved other than himself - CLAN SET PRIVATE ON. Only the clan head will then show as being a member in honours, IIRC.

Wouldn't that kind of, you know, resolve the main problem of people harassing members of the clan if there is no easy way (ie, honours) to tell whether they're a member or not?

Using the English language is OOC. It's a very shaky line when you try to tell us how to think about words. It takes a -lot- of mental agility to redirect how you think of word whenever you read it, because it will bring things to mind.

Not everyone is going to think the same things about each word, but if you try to strip connotations from a word, you're changing the language. If we were always IC, we'd be speaking a dialect of English.