I know I'm going to get hurt for this but... could we make the deaths of the Aspects and Lords count mechanically.

I've just been thinking recently, but I didn't really see any major action on Serenwildes side when some Hart Aspects were killed(this is not about the war so don't even start) however when an Avatar was kill bam everything explodes. People would talk about how an Avatar was killed and I would mention that Aspects were follow by "Oh yëah".

Now its just annoying me, I believe the Aspects should matter as much as the Avatars to Serenwilde, however as they just seem to return without any work being required their deaths have a lessened impact on Serenwilde. I'm going to guess this is the same everywhere.

What I'm asking for is just something to add to the impact to the loss of these beings, so that people don't say meh when someone comes in and kills them for fun.

Killing the Aspects could make totems die.

Anything, it's ridiculous when an org could have that denizen, which I believe is just important as the Avatars ICly, die a few times and not really care to much. But when another that requires 100 essence and drains power dies everyone gets up and rampages.

You also have to see it from the other side: there will be additional denizens that require defence. Considering how easy the Lords/Aspects are to kill I can very well imagine that to become a hassle.

no, we'd never have any totems then, and gah, we don't even bond more than 95% of them, but that other 5% is really needed.

I get what you're saying Saran, you think that the wilde is more Moon based then Hart based in ethereal defense, because people care less about the aspects, because even if all of them die they'll just be back up in an hour... but, I don't think making a quest to bring them back or making their deaths be monumentally devastating is the answer.

If each aspect made 1 unbonded totem die somewhere in the Wilde, we'd manage. (As long as they called out for help.)

I agree its dumb that we only care about the Moon/Night Avatars and not the Hart/Crow Aspects... but I don't think it is as much of an issue with cities. There are 5 targettable entities anyway.

When was the last time anyone tried to kill Hart or Crow?

Longer than I can remember!

I blame it partly on mechanics and partly on the bias thats always existed in Serenwilde against anything non-Moondancer.

I give this idea a thumbsdown. Aspects/Lords are too easy to slay, especially Water and Earth lords because they're so far from the cities' nexuses. Every semi-decent fighter can solo them. Trust me, I did it.

They shouldn't be so easy to slay.

Or even better, just don't do it.

Insert arguments here. I forgot them because my tooth hurts. Just remember - even if something looks cool on paper, it won't be necessarily cool when put to life. Like permadeath.

I think the Hartstone may have the cause of this confused. It's not because of a bias for Moon over Hart; if Hart was killed (he hasn't been) there'd be as much uproar as if the Avatars of Moon were. (Since the relationship between the Avatars and Moon is intentionally somewhat vague you could call this equivalent to killing Moon.) If an Aspect is killed (a memory of White Hart) it's similar to if a Lady of Silver Light (a guardian made of Moon's essence that protects the Fae) was killed. So if the reason why you want aspect killing to matter is because of that, does there really need to be any change?

Well, I think the Avatars are pretty good parallels to Aspects - they are symbolic of certain aspects of that Spirit, and speak on behalf of the collective/incorporeal entity. Ladies of the Silver Light are just fae who defend Moon & Serenwilde, the Aspects of Hart are a part of Him that echoes back and forward through Time, and can be sought in the dreamworld for their wisdom and insight.

I don't know if the Aspects of Crow are similar, but the Aspects of Hart are certainly more than just little individual servants.

Edit: I think if Moon was killed, there would be the same uproar as if Hart was killed. If Hart was killed, I would expect MUCH more consternation than if Luna was dead. Luckily, the intangible spirits don't appear physically to be killable.

I think we may have to agree to disagree there then as I'm not convinced by the comparison you're presenting and I don't think I can bring any more evidence of my PoV than I've already given. Maybe this is just an issue of perspective.

Moon -> Avatars -> moon-fae

Hart -> Aspects -> deer

It's not really perspective. The relationship between Hart and His Aspects and Moon and Her Avatars is equally vague, and equally representative.

The only difference is that you can go say hi to Hart, you have to conduct a big ceremony to say hi to Moon (and she is shy).

I agree with Elyrns statements because that's effectively the way I've seen it, The aspects of hart are in someway a part of him. Just as the Avatars are part of Mother Moon, And Saran believes that killing them is harming the greater whole. (<-make sense to anyone else?)

Hart shoud be harder to kill than the Avatars. The aspects should be harder, I can't stand it when I log in and get told "Oh so and so has been killing the aspects again" Really, how many people talk about the death of an Aspect after it happens. I would think Serenwilde could give a fairly good estimate on how many times each one has died.

I'm sorry, but if the reasons why people don't care enough about the aspects is because they are easy to kill and they are less than the Avatars, then I think that is wrong and should be fixed.

Well, if you go by that argument you can compare aspects to champions and little fae running about, and Hart to the Avatars. if that's the case it's harder to kill the hart side of things.

Cities don't really have the communes problem, they only have on religious pantheon.

Also, killing the Aspects/Lords is a small griefing quest, which isn't exceedingly hard to do. I could argue that it should remain, just because it's not -that- devastating, but it serves a purpose. There should be varying degrees of damage one inflicts on an organization, temporary essence power reduction is just in the low to middle of the scale somewhere. Slaying planar beings would be High, and killing pixies, (umm beggars/kinsmen would be the city equivalent?) would be low.

Moon can't be killed(and isn't even a Mob anywhere, even if we 'summon' her, she just speaks, or gestures or something and poofs again almost instantly), the Avatar's is as far as it goes Avatars=Hart for as far as devastating emotional devastation goes, I've got to agree with Nejii on those points. Maybe Hartstone is trying to equate Aspects to Avatars, because the Aspects are the only beings they have guild ties to which can be killed, but they’re certainly not the same.
The Avatars compose Mother Moon, they -are- her, the three of them together are what she is, not just representative of her(though saran touched on that a bit, so maybe he understands). The parts of Mother Moon that interact with Mortals are her Avatars, she’s 33% Albion 33% Luna 33% Selene 1% combining force as far as Moondancers are concerned. For that little chart I'd go, Avatars -> champions ->fae

So, while I understand that hartstone are upset that they think that people aren't defending the Aspects (just for the record I've never seen someone refuse to defend the aspects, and I've dieing trying to myself) as much as they would like. To me that's just the same as someone milling around gathering, deffing up, and activating demense, order, and discretionary powers to prepare for an attack on the Avatars instead of rushing in to save some champions who are dieing.

Maybe the rooms with Hart and Crow in them should be changed to be non-org so someone couldn’t just flow in with 30 guards, just so Hartstone has something of a higher order to worry about, but I don’t think you’d really want that, and it wouldn't make sense either, to have the Spirit of the forest not be in said forest.

Wha? How can she be 33% Albion, 33% Luna and only 1% Selene? Wheres the other bit of the 100%?

(And this is honestly the first time Ive heard of most of what Wesmin said. )

It says "33% Albion 33% Luna 33% Selene 1% combining force as far as Moondancers are concerned."

With commas it'd be 33% Albion, 33% Luna, 33% Selene, and 1% combining force as far as Moondancers are concerned.