I've found IRE combat is only fun when you're actually improving and doing well. There was a time when I was actually decent on Achaea, and could hold my own with a crap-tastic system I made with some decent fighters, and that was really fun. On Lusternia I just haven't had the time to make anything, so I find fighting frustrating.

Completely false...

examples: Richter, Ialie, Daganev

The examples you provided don't contradict or devalue the point she was making at all.

And don't think that I meant that being a fighter means you don't roleplay or vice-versa.

Just that the combat system discourages roleplay within the game. Which is true, but not an obstacle that can't be overcome.

All I'm saying is that its pointless to discuss roleplaying while considering the merits or flaws of the combat system.

Sorry, my point was that Credits mean Jack when it comes to combat ability. If you are good credits help, if you are bad, credits don't help. Unlike, say in most games where a level MAX person will always beat someone who is half thier level/might.

Its not uncommon for someone with 3 trans skills and level 60 to be able to beat someone who is level 100 with omnitrans.

Yes but they help, so does a system, so does having a lot of time to learn how to fight.
The point is that its the player that largely determines how good you are in combat not the character.

What aspect of IRE games is that not true?

Its true in politics, leadership, libraries, economics, combat, snuggling,

Lets not open this up to a discussion on how roleplaying should reflect the character not the player, and concentrate back on the issue of why combat is or isn't fun.

IRE's combats attraction is that it is player competitive. But the complexity of it means that there is a pretty steep barrier to entry.

I still tend to think that Lusternia's combat problems are largely player created, encouraged perhaps by the org vs. org culture fostered by the game.

What I think is needed is something that can encourage a bit more diversity in combat, and encourage people to pit themselves against more equal opponents. However, I can't see any easy way that can be achieved.

I don't really enjoy combat, unless I'm on an alt that no-one knows. I don't think it has major flaws though, and a good part of my dislike comes from just not being that interested in it to start with, rather than actual issues with Lusternian combat.

Personally, my only three problems are:

1) Group combat. In groups, zerging is everything. There is no penalty for using a huge team to pick out and obliterate individual targets, even though this involves little skill and hardly any enjoyment other than the satisfaction of certain victory.

2) Nation vs Individual boundaries. The great majority of the game where you would want to fight with or about something (especially on the planes) is all nation-loyal, meaning that any attack automatically prompts a whole nation to gather up a huge team to respond. There's no room for developing your own conflict, because once you gain a certain amount of notoriety and become well known, every action is assumed to be representative of your nation. No-one engages in 1 on 1 fights because almost every fight that isn't prompted by a duelling agreement is assumed to be an attack on a nation, or by a nation, or due to nation concerns. Because of the 1st point, this makes most combat unfun.

3) PK system. We have this innovative PK system called Avenger which is supposed to prevent grief-play, but it doesn't function AT ALL in half of the game. That's absolutely absurd - especially because this part of the game is not some deathmatch arena that characters would never want to enter unless they are willing to PK, but is instead a critical component of the essence and protectorates of all nations. Because of this, in the half of the game where griefing -is- discouraged, the rules have been tightened to ridiculous levels which end up stifling most conflict.

Oh yes, Avenger, and declare.
This is a symptom of the problem. The fact that these are necessary in the first place.

Its very refreshing to play an IRE game where there is no declare, Avenger and Karma.

This is one of the biggest problems in my opinion.

Agreed. It's hard to change without making nations less meaningful though.

That's saying everyone who thinks combat is fun is wrong... Don't do that! Anyway, I enjoy combat. It is what you make of it.

I didn't... I said is or isn't...

For those that enjoy it as it is, what aspects make it fun?
I'm leaning to thinking that Lusternia's uniquness is the org centred group conflict. Perhaps this is the place for people that like the pace and strategy of group combat?

I love comabt in Lusty.
Its fun.

When i first started playing it i had a year experience from Aetolia but i as noob still.

I had a lot of time for playing earning gold for credits and writing system so i ended in as quite good fighter. Then OOc stuff taked awaym my time my system is so outdated that i just dont want to use it anymore, do not haev time to make new one and i dont like to use someone else systems. So i do not fight now, but Lusty still is fun so im playing still. Maybe one day i will make new system and will start to fight again.

And also combat is cool, becose you need work really hard to be the best.
Well if you do not have time for writing system bashing for gold/cr, then you can always buy OOC cr. You just cant buy combat experience.
I used to almoust get heart attack when i was fighting bow, now its just nice adrenaline rush in veins.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Just like in real life.

Believe it or not, the only combat in Lusternia I enjoy is group combat, because, for some reason or the other, I suck at 1 vs 1. The only times I'm (half) useful is when no one is whacking me on the head.

Yes, that is my own fault and I'm not saying 1 vs 1 combat sucks. I would thoroughly enjoy it if the circumstances were different.

Just don't start preaching about the benefits of having PK rules like Achaea over the Avenger system. I left Achaea because combat is horrible, and I stay in Lusternia because I find combat and so many other things to be quite a lot of fun.

Also, I think you may be confusing the definition of roleplaying just a little bit. War or raiding is good roleplaying, as is the occassional duel or even jumping an infamous "criminal" who was simply out for a stroll on a higher plane. What isn't good roleplaying is when 5 guys jump a novice and tell him he died because his organization is at war with theirs or killing someone and then hurling your l33t-speak insults at them.

The main problem with combat in any game is the attitudes of those involved. I have actually enjoyed dying in Lusternia, when it's for a good cause and the fight was challenging but I had a chance. I haven't enjoyed dying when I was jumped on Prime because someone wanted to hurt a Seren target. Saying your a psycho killer clown or a holy avenger doesn't exactly give you license to fight anyone, any time, anywhere.

I feel you are misrepresenting me.

Firstly I wouldn't know anything about Achaea. I never lasted past novice in Achaea and the experience drove me away from MUDS for about a year.

Secondly the combat system is not conducive to roleplay. But what you are describing is adding roleplay to the combat that occurs. And you are of course quite right in pointing out that there is nothing to stop that happening, And I'd love to see more of it

Back to Avenger though... it's an admission of failure. The balances of the world and player self-moderation are not enough to keep things in check.

I'm actually more useful when getting whacked on the head, because I take a surprisingly long time to kill, and by the time they get me low, the maelstrom goes through.

Try being a Trill and say that again.