Grass is always greener on the other side.

When the game started, Celestines complained that Nihilists are overpowered. They showed their skills and said they're too weak, and they showed the nihilist skills saying they're too strong. Now, Nihilists whine. And the funny part? Both guilds changed, but the mentioned skills didn't change at all, well maybe slightly.

So no. Celest doesn't get all the overpowered skills. Too few people have guts to admit "It's me. I am weaker than my enemy, or my enemy is stronger than me. It's not the abilities, it's MY skills. I have to get better". Instead, they go "OMG overpowered nerf plx!".

If you think crucification is easy to get out of, ask a fellow Nihilist to crucify you and then writhe off, while they launch full offensive on you.

You forgot to mention that while Merians get level 2 regeneration in water, Viscanti get level 3 regeneration on tainted grounds. Of course, Viscanti have their drawbacks too (healing penalty sucks).

Only patterns that I see here - not in this thread, but in a lot of people's point of view:
-Enlarging the usefulness of other people's skills while diminishing or ignoring the usefulness of yours
-Blaming the skill design instead of your personal abilities, or the abilities of your enemies

Only other alternative I can see from pointing out the obvious and you justifying it to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, is buying a load of artifacts and becoming a knight like some do.

As far as complaints of Celest favouring, and that we owe all our success to our overpowered skills...to me that just sounds like a bitter lil child upset that he's on the losing team.

I cannot speak upon the bards, since I've absolutely 0 experience with any 'working' bards. (Nirrti was bugged in the freeforalls, couldn't land a single attack on her).

As forren commented, Bubble = stoneflesh. How is bubble overpowered, when stoneflesh isn't, simply because no mags use it? Oh, and want a situation where stoneflesh was used? I don't have a log, but one time I was raising Nil on earth. It was me against 8 or so Mags, including Ixion and Daevos. However, most of them were split up all over the mountains, so I was using geurilla tactics to kill off the stragglers. But, I ran into a geo at one point and he stonefleshed me. Then, everyone there teleported to me, blocked all the exits, and as soon as stoneflesh dropped, Daevos crucified me, and the beat down started. I barely made it out with trueheal/tumble, but my point is that stoneflesh was used to great effect in that situation.

Comparing demenses...Aqua demenses are only scary now cause of currents/whirlpool. Druids demenses have levitation changing (dreamweaving druids are absolutely evil), and geo's have rubble/damage output. They're different, but not one is staggeringly overpowered. Not long ago, geo demenses were considered uber.

Celestines are in fact stronger than nihilists, but I think that's mainly cause the insta-kills are easier to perform.

And I noticed that your post focused -solely- on skills that you felt were inadequate, and neglected to even comment on your very powerful skills. Ecto, lich, spawn (if the envoy changes went through), contagion, etc. As well, you seem to "forget" that there are a ton of useless sacraments skills as well. Ablution/lustration are barely worth the power costs. Honor costs 10p. Emissary is absolutely worthless.

In essence, I think you need to focus more on why you yourself are failing to overcome your opponents using what skills you have (that 2 years of envoys have looked over and worked on balancing), and less on trying to nerf the opposition to all so your battle is easier.

I got Torak to do just that when he was Champion. He stuck ectoplasm, rigormortis, scabies and epilepsy, and I still managed to writhe off before he sacrificed.

That was me.

Trueheal should not defend against Denizens attack period, it's already OP that it recovers eq, balance immediately not to mention an impenetrable shield and cures 'all' afflictions, OR They can defend against denizens, keep immediate eq/bal recovery with impenetrable shield and cures all afflictions EXCEPT it strips all defenses as a price.

Absolve vs Wrack -> Absolve is better, just vapor, stupidity, paralyze the poor fellow and when he's blacked out, amissio him and by the time he recovers from black out, he's half mana and can't drink because black out from vapors doesn't show diagnose (?) and by the time you do recover from anorexia, they also have asthma and by the time you cure asthma, boom, absolve, nothing else. Wrack? Puhleeze, ropes, shackle, web can be writhed out easily, got it stacked? tipheret and run away. Useless if you ask me.

Judge is an instant kill that you can get early after mastering rituals, just a few skills away from the first skill in sacraments, just judge while the others hinder you and poof your dead.

Inquisition/Heretic/Infidel? Easily pulled off, with its constant afflictions and as they say, stripping of defenses? You'll be useless in mere seconds.

Currents - another good way to seperate groups, hits ghosts and souls as well which is suppose to be possible since being a soul or ghost, you don't have any phyical forms THUS you can't be touched by that. Compare that to Earthquake? Meh... and oh, don't forget it increases damage and strips defenses like waterwalk, waterbreathe, etc. So kinda like Omen and Inquisition(?) in the demense.

Bubble - Sure, you can use it to on yourself to flee for a moment in case everyone is targetting you but suppose using it on someone who just got hit by crotamine, he can't cure, the duration being inside the bubble is enough for the poison to kill you.

Let's see, what else. Oh another one.

Celest's bards.

Anorexia/Aeon/Vapors? OMG that's the ultimate lock! Not to mention that song which prevents you from even applying anything meaning you can't cure blindness with health or faeleaf.

That's all.

EDIT: That's how I see it in this point of view.

Who's the bitter child here? I simply did some research and pointed out the obvious. You are leaving out all of the situational reasoning for my complaints.



That is what I collected from Celestines. Compared to..



I wouldn't mind a passive vapors/stupidity, kneel/paralysis combo. The Murphy tactic, requires so much time and effort compared to where a Celestine can just say screw it and drop inquisition in carcer after aeon/hangedman/web/prone inside of blackout within less than 20 seconds?

You're so full of it, I'm in actual pain. Thats all there is to discuss.

Wrack might be harder to pull off, but it's better for people without a high skillrank in discernment, since it doesn't cost power when it fails. It's nowhere as useless as you make it out to be. Sure, you won't be able to pull it off on anyone but warriors, but that's what you got damage/soulless for.

Sorry, this is wrong.

I'm so hurt by your forum insult trolling. I'll go cut my wrists now. /wrists

Why not donate something useful to the discussion?

Thats all you get.

Survey says... You're wrong.




I... I... I......... agree(?) with Cuber? Wow.

Sorry, this is also wrong.


The Cantors are quite new, so don't expect to know the quirks of their skills yet.

Here's the issue, kind of like Cuber pointed out.

By hte way, this is a comparison on my views between Celest and Magnagora, not of the communes.

In the beginning, Necromancy was insanely powerful. Celestian skills were s good at the time, BUT 99% of Sacraments users didn't even know how Inquisition worked. I'm not kidding, most people would ask me why waste the power on it. Celestians complained and whined a great deal (I was one of them, so I know) and Necromancy was hit hard by the divine, changing the skills to be far weaker and less effective in general. Sacraments stayed the same, still powerful, but at the time, unseen by most fighters.

After awhile, nerfs and upgrades came and went, Celest and Magnagora were not touched to much and had a level playing field for awhile while the Communes were tweaked. At this time, in my opinion, Celestines were the top dogs, considering they have never really recieved a nerf or been balanced. Psionics came about and it was discovered than in an Aquamancers demense, a psionist became a god. Geomancer psionists were very good aswell with summon/barrier/chasm traps.... though not so much with the heartburst/lock downs the Aquas pulled. At this time, Geomancers were the top dogs of the Magi world.

Nerfs came, Summon was removed, effectivley making the Barrier/Chasm worthless in most fights. Aquamancers still have currents and whirlpool to slowly pull their victims in and kill them. Aquamancers take the lead here, with Celestines still top. Nihilists after suffering so many nerfs have a great deal of trouble killing solo at this point. For those of you who argue that Eiru and Thorgal were good, check your memories because they stopped playing before the major nerfs hit.

Hajiman himself stated that the most powerful PK guild is Aquamancers, followed closely by Celestines and Moondancers.

Now, in the last few months, everyone knows how good Sacrifice/Trueheal is. Due to upgrades, and the lack of active envoys on Magnagora's part, Celest has gained insane boosts, when they really never needed them. One of the reasons for the lack of envoys was due to some issue in the Ur'guard retaining an envoy and the divine over our city took a great deal of time to re-appoint new envoys.

At this time, Celestian Guilds do have a great advantage over Magnagorian guilds. I really hope the combat field is leveled again as it once was when it was the opposite.

As to the Merian/Viscanti. Most consider Merian stats/advantages outweight those of the Viscanti.

Merian Warrior: Str:16, Dex:14, Con:15, Int:13, Cha:11, Size:14
Merian Guardian/Mage: Str:9, Dex:10, Con:10, Int:18, Cha:15, Size:12

Viscanti Warrior: Str:16, Dex:12, Con:16, Int:9, Cha:9, Size:15
Viscanti Guardian/Magi: Str:11, Dex:8, Con:14, Int:15, Cha:12, Size:13

Merian
Advantages:
o Regain equilibrium faster, level 1.
o Regenerate health and mana while in water, level 2.
o Can automatically swim and tread water without taking damage.
o Can breathe underwater.
o Can DIVE into the ocean depths (RISE to come up).
o Resist asphyxiation damage, level 2.
Disadvatages:
o Are susceptible to fire, level 2.
o Are susceptible to electricity, level 2.

Viscanti
Advantages:
o Can breathe poison gas upon reaching level 50.
o Regenerate health and mana while in Tainted land, level 3.
o Immune from poison gas.
o Resistance to poison damage, level 1.
o Resistance to blunt damage, level 1.
o Resistance to cutting damage, level 1.
Disadvantages:
o Heal more slowly from elixirs, level 2.

hmm, right but... c'mon! When I jump Mitch and played his song, there was this line that says that I can't eat anything as long as this music plays not to mention I was blind then after that I can't even apply salves!

Um, Lightzout, you're so wrong in so many respects. Please leave combat comments to those who are actually, you know, good at it.

yea passive vapors is not as awesome as it seems, I can symbol envoke vapors for INSTANT VAPORS -AND- stack it with wrathed vapors + anything else and it still is not as awesome as it sounds... I would love putrefaction to go with my draconis and robes and trans reslience, Mmm...

Granted I am not evenr emotely a fighter, but whoring vapors gets you nowhere but owned.

Love,mimi

There is more to those skills than that, which lessen the effect.

Hey that's how I look at it... though you're right though, need to research more.