Moving this higher on the list, so that it can finally be implemented....

If it actually did this much, it wouldn't be so ridiculous. Try double that amount for hailstorm.



What? That won't fly. The bolded parts are absurd. So now people like Icarus can do 1700+1700 = 3400 for 6p or 7p? Why don't we just make pulp and haymaker actually equivalent to four full swings while we are at it!

... Haymaker isn't four full swings? I always thought it was... Of course, since noone uses it, I've never been hit by it. The Furystrike suggestion has been up there for about an OOC month now, and was first put up by a Warrior envoy - why hasn't anyone pointed this out yet?

What exactly does Haymaker do then?

Haymaker is four full swings. All four hit the same body part, all four are subject to stances, parry, rebounding and shield, all four do nothing special. Pretty crappy for a ten power skill.

Pulp is two swings. Both hit the same body part, subject to stances, parry, rebounding and shield. They do maybe 10% more damage and 10% more wounding. Pretty crappy for an eight power skill.

Each of these skills has one advantange: They're swings, not strikes. Therefore we can use them for things like behead and bashbrains. On the rare person who doesn't parry their head fully when that badly wounded.

Ok, pulp does do a little extra damage/wounding, but I don't know how much. Fairly insignificant for eight power though. The numbers I pulled out of my ass.

As a quick note to Shorlen, I hope there is a deadline on this. We all know how long one of these types of forum topics can be drawn out.

At the beginning of the month, I set an unoffical deadline of november 13th, and I see no reason to change that date.




Regarding Haymaker, Flacarealah and I just tested it. Tuek is correct - Haymaker is four swings at 75% normal swing damage and 100% normal swing wounds. So, they do the deepwounds of four swings, the deepwound afflictions of four swings, the poisons of four swings, and the damage of three swings.

I propose altering the AL proposals to include:

FuryStrike: These hits deal 75% of normal damage. (Should this be for both versions, or only the single target one?)

Momentum: 6P, usable off balance. When activated, gives a puissence-like defence that decreases the damage you deal by half, but allows you to attack while off balance. Does not effect the number of deepwounds the hit causes. Once you attack, this defence goes away.

What are the opinions regarding this?

Don't let momentum stay around long. No more than a few seconds, or perhaps fading the next time you get balance back.

That was the intent, yes. I'm not sure how puissence works mechanically, but I assume they can use very similar code, no?

EDIT: Meaning, puissence is a power move that effects a single combo and doesn't stick around very long, right?

Let me see if I am understanding your suggestion for Momentum:

You put up the skill, using 6 power. This takes balance or eq to put up, and once up you can use the momentum to attack off balance within a certain time-frame.

I think a better way is that it would always be available, but when you use it have it require and take 6 power. In other words, don't have it act as a defense, but as an active attack that doesn't require balance.

Edit: If it goes this way, up the power to 8 and make sure that it only deals half damage.

No, the way I am suggesting is: You hit someone, see that you got a good afflict off, and THEN spend the 6P while off balance (not comsuming anything) to gain the defense, and then can attack once while still off balance. The second attack does not require balance/eq, nor does it cost stacking balance (doesn't increase the balance recovery time).

So, for instance:

as one attack, or



This would limit the versitility, as then it couldn't be used with maneuvers, as I understand it, and make it more like a haymaker with fewer changes to proc deepwound afflicts/poisons.


Are you sure it would be worthwhile at 8p? Would you use it, I guess is the question?

How much balance loss should Momentum accrue? Should you 1- recover balance as you would from the FIRST strike alone, making the second strike not effect the balance recovery at all, or 2- recover balance from the second swing as if it was the only swing?

So, if you have a 4 second swing recovery time, and you hit, waited 2 seconds, and then momentum+swing, should you recover balance 4 seconds from the initial swing, 6 seconds from the initial swing, or 8 seconds from the initial swing?

I'm leaning towards 4.

Ok, I see what you mean now. It just seems a bit unwieldly to swing, put up a defense, swing again, but I'm weird.

If the balance recovery was the same for 1 swing I would be willing to use 8 power on it. Of course, I'd rather it be 6 power...

If it took the full balance of two swing then it's really no advantage over a normal two hits other than you hit quicker. If it took 6-8 seconds to recover balance it would never be used.

Anyway, looking back at it all, I like the original suggestion (the one about the defense for 6 power).

True, and it wouldn't be as good for night ebonguard axelords, but still, I think the versitility gain should make up for it.


Alright, good to know, especially seeing the advantages it has over Haymaker which probably outweigh the disadvantages, especially since you can use it after a knockdown to get a ton of wounds wherever the heck you'd like.


I fully agree about the 8 seconds, but consider the 6 second thing again: If you swing, momentum, swing, with no pause in-between, it's still four second recovery regardless of whether you are measuring the recovery by the first or second swing.

If you swing, wait 3.5 seconds, and then momentum/swing, if you are measuring recovery time by the first swing, you would then recover balance .5 seconds after swinging (4 seconds after the first swing, .5 seconds after the second swing). Measuring by the second swing, you would recover balance 7.5 seconds after the first swing, 4 seconds after the second one.

I was asking which of those two was better - more or less require the second hit to come immediately or not be worth it, or allowing the axelord to wait as long as they wanted between swings.


Remember that we're asking which you believe to be more balanced, not which you'd perfer to have more Is 6p too cheap for a skill that does this? (I personally believe Haymaker should be cheapened to 7-8p, and pulp to 6-7p, but that's just me.)

Best case in both balance and useability would be to have it take balance +2 seconds from the 2nd hit, but require 6 power.

I'd use it.

But if both hits are 0 seconds apart, then you are regaining balance in half time by your wording. On the second swing, it could set the remaining balance recovery time to be the higher of (remaining recovery time from first swing) and (half normal recovery time of second swing if the weapon was swung normally).

Meaning, if you have a 4 second recovery time and you swung at time 0, momentumed immediately (at time 0), and swung again immediately (at time 0), you would recover in four seconds (at time 4).

If you swung at time 0, momentumed three seconds later (at time 3), and swung again right after (at time 3), you would recover two seconds later (at time 5).



... but that's getting far too complicated. I'm really thinking that the second hit not effecting your recovery in the slightest (recovering right when you normally would from the first swing) is perfectly fine. But if that's the case, 6p is very likely too cheap...


Oh, and on a completely unrelated note, I just realized how absurdly powerful a Truemaker (combo/trueheal/combo) is - it's blanketly better than a Haymaker, as it full heals/cures and does significantly more damage (33% damage increase over Haymaker) for the same cost. However, that's a discussion for another time.

Well, yea. I wasn't suggesting that we recover balance 2 seconds after. Obviously it would be the full balance time or 2 seconds after the first hit, whichever is greater.

Yeah actually hailstorm hits harder than a geo staff.

But anyways... have we come to any conclusions?

Just my input about Momentum:

I'd have thought it would be better as a single skill, so that instead of doing swing/momentum/swing, it was just swing/momentum. Either you could define what the momentum does (ie, Momentum swing vesar or Momentum strike vesar lleg), or it would do exactly the same again. I don't like the thought of having them as separate, so that you set up momentum and can then attack for 2 reasons: 1) It's probably harder to code an exception to Knighthood skills(and no others) not needing balance in the short period of time, and 2) What happens if you use momentum, but then recover balance before you get the second attack in? Power wasted.

Just my thoughts.

How would momentum work with trueheal and refresh?

The danger there, as well as the danger that you hit shield, would be the price you are paying for versitility, I'd imagine. Perhaps it should work like Ambush then? Meaning, you would do MOMENTUM SETUP (attack) at some point to set up what the attack would do, and then MOMENTUM (person) to execute it?

I do not know what is easy and what is hard to code. From what I understand, the pervious suggestion I had made would be coded similarly to Puissence, but require an alteration of the balance check for certain skills. The second one would copy code from Ambush, except it would be flagged as a balance-less power skill. It should require EQ though, as otherwise, it could be used to follow skills it probably shouldn't follow, like waning...

No effect except making the truemaker w/ refresh combo a bit cheaper.

swing - trueheal (-10p) - refresh power - swing - trueheal (-10p) - swing.

versus:

swing - trueheal (-10p) - refresh power - swing - momentum (-6p) - swing.


Right?