The danger there, as well as the danger that you hit shield, would be the price you are paying for versitility, I'd imagine. Perhaps it should work like Ambush then? Meaning, you would do MOMENTUM SETUP (attack) at some point to set up what the attack would do, and then MOMENTUM (person) to execute it?

No effect except making the truemaker w/ refresh combo a bit cheaper.

swing - trueheal (-10p) - refresh power - swing - trueheal (-10p) - swing.

versus:

swing - trueheal (-10p) - refresh power - swing - momentum (-6p) - swing.
Right?

How would momentum work with trueheal and refresh?

What about hitting shield? Sorry, you lost me there a bit. Skills rarely if ever cost power when you just hit circle/pentagram.

Trueheal, at the moment, allows ANY warrior spec to perform a Haymaker that does 33% MORE damage than Haymaker for the same power as Haymaker - I would like this to be addressed soon, but that's a side comment.

I don't see what you mean though. You can already swing, trueheal, swing, power refresh, trueheal, swing, for a triple combo. Why would you use momentum instead at any point in that if you are going to do that? One Momentum would lower the total power cost by 3-4, but reduce the damage from 300% to 250% of a normal swing.

Yes, there may be problems with the interaction of Trueheal and Powerrefresh, but Momentum wouldn't introduce any new problems that aren't already there, nor exaberate any present problems.
Right, but in the original suggestion, you spent the power when activating momentum, not when swinging with momentum up. The check for shield wouldn't be until you actually swung, which is after the power cost. Changing it to be the way you recommended, which is Ambush style, would cause it to not cost power if it hit shield, and is likely the better way of having it work.

It depends if you are allowing normal swings which are stopped by reboudning/parry/stance/shield, or if you are also able to do the power attacks that increase wounding and bypass those things.

But anyways... have we come to any conclusions?

As some of you know, the Envoys are working to try to balance Axelords and Pureblades with the other weapon specs, but there appears to be a very large problem. Many of the Envoys have little to no experience with Pureblades and Axelords, and indeed, many of the Envoys have little to no experience with warrior combat at all, as they are not warrior envoys. Thus, progress towards a complete report has been quite sluggish, and Estarra has asked me to post here requesting assistance in completing it.

Please, if you respond with ideas or opinions, give a measure of how much experience you have had either fighting as a pureblade or axelord, or fighting against pureblades and axelords. If you have been both a two-hander and a one-hander, your word will carry even more weight, since you will be better able to gauge where the flaws lie in the two -anders that are no present in the one-handers.

Here is what has been asked of us:

And a clarification when asked about making mechanical changes to a skillset beyond altering afflicts:

So please, keep suggestions simple.
Here is the report so far:

Mechanics changes

1. The affliction rate for poisons on two-handed weapons changed to use the following equation: twoHanderAfflictRate = 1-((1-oneHanderAfflictRate)^2). Thus, if the chance for a one hander to proc the poison is 50%, the chance for a two hander is 75%. If the chance for the one hander is 80%, the chance for the two hander is 96%. This gives both one handers and two handers the same chance to proc at least one poison, with two handers having the advantage of doing more wounds per combo, and one handers having the advantage of being able to deal two poisons in one combo.

2. ChampionHelms - I've tested the warrior champion helm to determine how much it increases wounds and damage given. It gives a 25% bonus to damage and a 27% bonus to wounds. I was under the impression that it is suppose to only give a 15% bonus to each, so I am adding a request that it be fixed in this envoy report.

3. Magnatize, the Telekinetic skill, currently takes two channels to slow down a BC or BM's weapons, but only one channel for the same effect on a PB or AL. We propose reducing the effect of Magnatize on two handed weapons to 75% of it's current strength. This way, it still only takes one locked channel to fully hinder the PB or AL, but the full hindering effect is less.
Skill changes

1. HeftyAxe: (Axelord) The skill currently lowers weapon stats on the weapon it hits. This makes the skill worthless again non-warriors, and not even much of an impact on other warriors. Suggestion for this is the blow they parried was so hard that they are unable to parry for the following 5 seconds. This would, in other words, give the affliction "unbalanced" when the skill activated, which would prevent parrying and go away on its own after five seconds. This will allow the Axelord to swing and not be parried for at least the next strike. Considering how low the proc rate is on this so far, this would not be an overpowering factor. Also, when the skill activates, the Axelord should notice it.

2. HeftySword: (Pureblade) This currently procs a small stun (about .5 of a second) and has no impact on the target as a giant sword crashing down on them should. Suggestion for this is to increase the stun to about 2 seconds. This is still not overpowering, but will atleast allow the PB to have some breathing time since their attack was just stopped. Also, when the skill activates, the Pureblade should notice it.

3. Roundhouse removed and instead replaced by one of the following alternatives:

3a. FuryStrike (Axelord Trans skill/Replacing Roundhouse): This skill will allow you to hit one person twice or two persons once. If one target is selected, the cost is 7p, while if two targets are selected, it's 4p. The strikes count as swings, can be targetted, and are still subject to parry/stance/shield/rebounding. These hits will deal 75% of normal damage, and 100% of normal deepwounds.

3b. Momentum (Axelord Trans skill/Replacing Roundhouse): 7p, usable while off balance only. Grants a defence that allows the Axelord to use an attack (swing, jab, hack, slice, swipe, slash, strike, cleave, maneuver) off balance which consumes no balance, but deals only 50% of normal damage. Defence expires on balance recovery and upon use of an attack. This would allow the Axelord to hit immediately after getting a particularly nasty affliction.

3c. Momentum (Axelord Trans skill/Replacing Roundhouse): You must first prepare an attack with MOMENTUM SETUP (attack) in a similar manner to the hunting skill Ambush. This does not take or require balance or equilibrium. Valid attacks are: swing, jab, hack, slice, swipe, slash, strike, cleave, maneuver perform (name). Once you have set up an attack, you can then use MOMENTUM (person) for 7p to use the set up attack while off balance. This attack is treated like a normal attack, except it deals 50% less health damage and does not require nor consume balance. Valid parameters are, of course, left/right/up/down/bodypart, based on which attack is setup.
Affliction changes

1. Slitthroat should be changed to a 2-second delayed smoking myrtle cure. Though not exactly a PB/AL change, this is highly relevent to the proposed change in poison afflict rates included in this report.

2. CollapseLungs- (Pureblade only) Remove the PunctureLung affliction prerequisite and change the wound state requirement to Critical.

3. CrushChest- (Axelord only) Remove the BreakChest affliction prerequisite and change the wound state requirement to Critical.

4. Currently, CrackElbow and CrackKneecap have the issue of not being stackable, and thus not being worth using. Hitting someone with the CrackElbow or CrackKneecap afflicts when they already have those afflicts should break the arm or leg and cause a short stun. I believe that this would make the afflicts a bit more useful to use.
Affliction replacements

Both

1. Lacerations: (Pureblade & Axelord, replaces Arm and Leg Arteries, light-medium arm/leg wounds) - Change name to Lacerations and increase intial bleeding to 100 and bleeding per tic to 100 (these numbers are both 50 for SeveredArteries).

Pureblade

1. RuptureStomach: (Pureblade, replaces SepticWound, Critical Gut Wound, Swing or Jab) - Ruptures the stomach, causing bleeding and lowering hunger level 1 one full level. The Bleeding would be heavy, seeing as this is a critical wound. Skills such as Orange, Constitution, etc will still have their same effects, but the wound will still lower their hunger level.

2. Flay: (Pureblade, replaces Scalp, Heavy Head Wound, Strike or Swing) - This attack flays the skin from the victims face, causing disfigurement due to the wound. This gives the victim Disfigurement until cured. The cure would be a delayed-regeneration cure. This will give Pureblades an attack that will aide in slowing down Guardians mainly, considering they are one of the toughest fights for a warrior due to passive and active skills to slow/subdue the warrior. CharismaticAura will still render the victim immune to the effect, and CharismaticSmile will cure it instantly (at the same balance loss that it currently has for disloyalty).

3. GashCheek (Pureblade, replaces SliceForehead, Medium Head Wound, Jab) - Causes 75 bleeding (no incurable bleeding, no repeated bleeding) and causes your cheek to twitch involuntarily every 4-6 seconds, throwing you off balance for a second. Cured by eating marjoram. The intent of this affliction is to give PBs another jab afflict for the head, and to remove more BM afflictions from the two hander specs.

Axelord

1. SeverSpine: (Axelord, replaces SepticWound, Critical Gut Wound, Swing) - A strong blow to the gut shattering the spine and collapsing the nervous system, paralysing the person until cured. 3.5-4 second delayed Regeneration cure.

2. ShatterJaw (Axelord, replaces Scalp, Heavy Head Wound, Jab) - Causes target to suffer acute pain when eating or drinking, resulting in 75 bleeding per thing eaten or drunk. Cured by applying mending to head. When cured, becomes the BreakJaw affliction (which has a mending or arnica cure).

3. RingingEars (Axelord, replaces SliceEar, Light Head Wound, Swing or Jab) - Causes the same stun as SliceEar, plus either confusion or dizziness (which one it gives is semi-masked). The intent is to give ALs another jab afflict for the head, and to remove more BM afflictions from the two hander specs.

4. DislocateShoulder (Axelord, replaces BreakArm, Heavy Arm Wound, Jab or Swing) - by seperating someone's arm from its socket, you prevent them from using the arm in any useful manner. When cured, the pain of the nerves reattaching causes them to swoon. (Arm break that causes stun + blackout on cure). Cured by applying mending to arms. Alternatively, it could case blackout + sprawled or sprawled + stun on cure. This is intended to be of the same level of ferocity as SeverTendon.
So, again, we are asking for informed opinions and relatively simple suggestions (even though some of these aren't). Please do not start flame wars because you think someone else's suggestion is overpowered. Please do not derail this thread.

Thank you.

Was this updated? if so can you please highlight what was updated?

Going back to the poison issue. It still seems to me that the advantage goes to 1 handed weapons even if you up the chance of infliction to poisons on 2 handers to 75%. I was talking with Roark and at critical levels both 1 handers and 2 handers will be hitting at 100%, and this without a doubt favours 1 handers. Getting to critical faster does not seem to be balanced.

Here's a radical thought. How about DROP the chance on 2 handers to 25% and have them able to inflict 2 poisons as a double-bladed weapon?

Going back to the poison issue. It still seems to me that the advantage goes to 1 handed weapons even if you up the chance of infliction to poisons on 2 handers to 75%. I was talking with Roark and at critical levels both 1 handers and 2 handers will be hitting at 100%, and this without a doubt favours 1 handers. Getting to critical faster does not seem to be balanced.

Here's a radical thought. How about DROP the chance on 2 handers to 25% and have them able to inflict 2 poisons as a double-bladed weapon?

I've reworded quite a few points for clarity, and added in and changed a bunch of specifics based on what people have said. Apart from you, the other PBs and warriors I spoke with believe the changes to PBs that have been proposed are sufficient to balance the class with BMs and BCs, though it's hard to tell without testing. The only skill I think may still need tweaking of the PB suggestions is Flay.

All the other PB's and warriors that didnt speak about anything but Momentum? So you mean the one other PB and all the AL's??


In my opinion, all that I believe still needs to be worked on before the report is finished is Flay, DislocateShoulder, and AL hindering.

Like I said disclocate shoulder is far superior the way you are trying to make it than severtendon and since you have repeatedly kept saying kneecap already seems to be a regen cure... it sounds like kneecap is already the AL's version of severtendon, so whey are we giving them a severarmtendon?

Upon testing SliceThigh, it was found that SliceThigh has a 33% chance of causing you to fall sprawled and get stunned for 4 seconds when you move. It fires after the movement finishes, so they still get out of the room. It's instantly cured, and it's a medium wound. I think it would be more hindering though if it fired on a move attempt instead of after the move. Alternatively, the chance of it firing could be raised to 100% and it can remain firing after the movement. I think one or the other is necessary for it to be sufficiently hindering since it has an instant cure. What do others think?

I agree with that, especially since it has an instant cure to it


DislocateShoulder, I am still not sure I'm happy with. I have been speaking with Vesar, and we have decided that ALs do need more hindering. I had wanted Dislocate to be a hindering move, but it's hard to think of a good one for an arm. Vesar's idea was for the move to instead knock the target off eq for 2 seconds, but that seems really weak for a heavy arm wound. What are the opinions of others regarding the DislocateArm affliction and other afflictions that can go into the wound slot?

So you are changing dislocate shoulder alltogether, well then you may want to disregard my earlier bolded statement. I think the original idea is fine to add as a new skill still, but available to both 2handed classes

Ildaudid, you keep saying CrackKneecap is the AL version of SeverTendon? What exactly are you talking about? One prones and prevents standing until a regen cure finishes. The other removes a stance and prevents stancing until a regen cure finishes.

Well basically what I was saying from the get go was improve crackkneecap and make is prone and prevent standing, Having it drop stancing is stupid since it will probably be cured before the next balnace comes through with a 2hander AL

The two afflictions serve completely different purposes, with no similarities between them.

The AL version of SeverTendon is called SliceThigh, and is described in that post. It's far weaker, but given at a lower level of wounding. Thus, ALs should have an improved version of SeverNerve at Heavy arm wounds, if there is to be a mirror like you seem to want.

If they need a severnerve that is fine Shorlen, dont give them something that stuns and causes blackout to compensate for something so lame as sever nerve (granted it is great as a BM but as a PB it isnt the be all and end all of the skillset)

Not every conversation I have with someone is posted here for everyone to read over. If you are so convinced these changes will not be enough for PBs, speak with another envoy about it. Perhaps your own, Ethelon.

Have you noticed not one envoy has posted here, save for xavius I think. What is that saying of how well the other envoys are willing to listen. Right now for some reason this is your show.... you are ing this cat. That is why you are getting my input... the very first thing you asked here was for input. So that is all I am doing... especially since I haven't seen any other envoy (cept xavius) make any statements.


I think the poison change, whichever we go through with, will almost be enough by itself - that along with some other small changes should be sufficient.

If it is 25% to start then works up to 100% at critical yes that indeed will be a great thing for 2handers.

Remember it is hard as nil to get things implemented but easy to nerf them, so that is why I am pushing for these things since no one else seems to give a rats ass... If they turn out to be too powerful you all will nerf them trust me.... ex. pits, traps, assault, lunge. It takes nothing to nerf but everything to add ideas.

GashCheek isn't in place of SliceEar, it is in place of SliceForehead.

I know that, I am saying, add the sliceear upgrade to both skillsets. They both have slice ear

Going back to the poison issue. It still seems to me that the advantage goes to 1 handed weapons even if you up the chance of infliction to poisons on 2 handers to 75%. I was talking with Roark and at critical levels both 1 handers and 2 handers will be hitting at 100%, and this without a doubt favours 1 handers. Getting to critical faster does not seem to be balanced.

Here's a radical thought. How about DROP the chance on 2 handers to 25% and have them able to inflict 2 poisons as a double-bladed weapon?

Having tested CrackKneecap, the delay on the cure is exactly 4 seconds. Any weapon with speed over 170 will hit faster than that, as Vesar's 166 speed weapon had a 4 second balance.

Remember, they lose their stance and cannot stance again until it ends AND they have balance. So, if they are performing full actions, it'll still be a bit before they can stance again after they cure it. Possibly even as much as 4 seconds if they act just before it, giving the AL a second hit while they are unstanced. Yes, this isn't THAT likely, but if the AL's weapon approaches 3s hits (which high speed ones can, right?), this isn't that hard to believe.

I see nothing wrong with CrackKneecap as an affliction, nor do I think it needs to do something else. The problem that someone pointed out to me was that if you hit someone with CrackKneecap while they have it and are curing it, it's annoying since it doesn't do a thing to them. Since it's already unstackable (since the whole point of it is that you want to hit them while they are curing it, not wait and hit them after they've already cured it), the recommended change was to cause it to break the leg and cause a short stun if they are hit by the afflict while they have the afflict.

I can live with this, I just thought it would be nice to give them a tendon like affliction, I was unaware that slice thigh was their tendon thing, well then slice thigh should be uprgraded and put at tendon wounding level. I think that kneecap and crackelbow would both benifit from this upgrade if you are still considering making this work with crackelbow too. I was just under the impression they had no tendon style attack to the leg so again I thought you could upgrade this to a tendon like affliction. But yeah I see your point here.

SliceEar upgrade? Do you really see that as an upgrade? SliceEar does stun plus bleed plus a chance of dizzy if it's uncured long enough. RingingEars does stun plus either confusion or dizzy. I was under the impression that PBs wanted bleeding afflicts more than anything, so I assumed that SliceEar was *better* for them than the suggestion I had made for ALs.

Sliceear : A favorite maneuver for a few infamous warriors who like collecting trophies is cutting off an opponent's ear, which also fills the ear canal with blood causing bouts of vertigo. This causes very little bleeding heh like what 10 bleeding? it does not cause stun so basically it is very little bleeding the affliction of dizzy. If you up the bleeding and add the actual stun then I wouldnt mind seeing AL's get stun+dizzy+confusion

Most of the point of the AL afflict was to remove more BM-copied afflicts, just as the change was made to replace SliceForehead for PBs, and also to make the two more unique.

You kept saying how PBs rely on bleed - so why do you want to remove a basic bleed afflict?
Also, Geb is an envoy, as is Tuek. I have also been speaking with Ethelon about what's been posted here. I am not the only envoy making comments.

I forgot Tuek posted, and Geb isnt an official envoy, I could go in and make comments on the envoy wiki but I don't. Geb is one of the more neutral players tho... so he has every right to be an honorary envoy. Ethelon hasn't posted here at all. Nor has Xenthos, Nico (except maybe about the momentum not sure now) or Flach, so if memory serves me and it usually doesn't none of the warrior "official envoys" have made any remarks here.