Would I be right in suggesting that this discussion is essentially a semantic one?

'Balancing for omnitrans' is a simplistic phrase that just rolls off the tongue - I've certainly used it without actually meaning it properly. When interpreted literally, it means that if everyone has every skill, then there is no mechanical advantage given to any particular player holding a particular guildset, and combat success will come down to personal OOC skill. If we're going to interpret it literally, then I entirely disagree with it.

But it's not interpreted literally. There are no skillsets in this game which have skills for which the only counter is a transcendent skill. Skills like realitycheck and chop are half way up the lists, resilience and discipline are sliding scales whereby a little bit is useful, and it's not all or nothing.

Narsrim used the word 'polarised'*, though I've forgotten the context. The word is an apt one. The skills as they stand are simply not a binary all or nothing situation - where skills -are- requried: tumble, chop, realitycheck, etc... they are relatively attainable. In the case of double mantakaya daggers, having trans resilience and discipline certainly helps, but it is by no means necessary (I also think that that skill is a little overpowered, but I don't want it to be nerfed into oblivion. Perhaps give it a 5-10% failure rate at inept resilience?)

If the envoys and the admin were genuinely balancing for omnitrans, then there would be no argument against implementing a new skill, say at adept Geomancy, for which the only counter was a new skill at trans environment. According to the 'balancing at omnitrans' rule, that would be balanced and acceptable. According to any degree of common sense, it would be daft. Obviously the 'balancing at omnitrans' perspective is a blinkered one - it may be a very useful one in some situations, but in others it isn't.

However I note that there are no adept Geomancy skills which require trans environment, or any equivalent of these. I assume, therefore.. that the admin and envoys do not simply 'balance for omnitrans', and I conclude that this entire thread is a little bit of a red herring.

*or it might have been Xavius

It is basically possible to survive combat without all of the skills mentioned (trans discipline, tumble, climbing, focus mind, etc), but it's not easy. I do not have any of those skills, and there have been several times when knowing them most likely would have made the difference between winning and losing a fight. So while they're not absolutely necessary to be a fighter, they can make a big difference.

Even though they are not trans skills, if you expect to be viable in combat against experienced fighters, you have to have those skills at this point. I know of no strong fighters who do NOT have them.

I think combat should be balanced across levels. A tri-trans fighter should be at a disadvantage against someone with much higher might. It should not be the sole deciding factor in the fight, but higher might should have advantages. I would say that tri-trans should be balanced against tri-trans, omni-trans against omni-trans, adept against adept, etc.. Other skills should not be absolutely required to survive (i.e. the mantakaya daggers/warrior weapons). I don't think there should be situations where Tumble is the only possible means of escape, but tumble should make escape much easier. Otherwise, I think the balance is okay right now.

While it is true that Imperian is based on tri-trans, you also have to note that guild skills in Imperian are a little more defined and there are quite a few more of them it seems. A lot of classes have general skillset things in their utility guild tree. The trump cards for general skills (focus and purge blood) actually have guild-skill or toxin counters now, as well. Hemotoxin can block purging (purge gets rid of any physical poison affliction) and impatience blocks focus (cures any mental affliction on a very short timer). You must have diagnose and as here, you absolutely must have tumble as it allows you to move even while almost fully disabled.

I think Narsrim is actually much closer to the problem here, perhaps, than people give him credit for. In Imperian, paralysis is dangerous but it is also cured by touching a tree tattoo (30 second recovery normal, 10 seconds with the proper general skill in survival), purging blood (trans antidotes, half cost miniskill), and an herb. If focusing body is the only way to cure it here and it is totally dependant on a skill, that's pretty rough.

I think focusing on guild skills is a good way to keep it balanced and keep people interested in spending credits. Having a lot of required full-cost skill lines just to be combat capable will overwhelm people with the number of credits needed.

The Imperian general skills are alright, but completely unnecessary for being combat capable. Are they nice? Yes. Are they MUST HAVE to compete? No. I would say tumble, diagnose, recovery, and trans guild skills are the absolute must haves of Imperian. Some classes can do less because they have a skill line that is absurdly powerful (taekyon, clerics, etc).

It's a view of combat slanted mostly by Imperian, but I thought some might be interested in hearing it.

As for the original topic, I think balancing with omni-trans in mind is a bad idea. The number and ability of transcendent skills should provide a natural advantage, rather than a code-based one. If I'm not mistaken, the original intent of this post is more aimed at an MMO PvP type angle where the developer decides whether or not to give a big damage bonus to a player who is 20 levels higher just for BEING 20 levels higher, not just for having a nuke/ability with 200 more base damage. It was really bad in DAOC for a while with that, where the innate bonus of being higher level completely shattered anything a lower level player could do. Not only did they have access to better styles/nukes/whatever, they received something like a 40% damage bonus and a 40% damage soak on incoming, if they could even be hit.

How would it work if it was assumed people had trample to get sacrifice to work for example... I think that would be messed up. It seems like when I was an ur'guard trample was a necessary skill, thankfully it no longer is.

how bout the poison should be nerfed instead. Then, neither warriors nor mages could do it.

And I think that fighting should be balanced on the assumption of omni-trans. Otherwise, once people DO trans a few things (which is most of the popululation) combat is going to be boring, repetitive and almost no way to beat another omnitrans

The problem then, though, is that nobody who is not omnitrans can be very active in combat. Those you mentioned who are in the 'majority of the population' would own, while nobody else could have a chance.

I suppose I've never been very active in combat as I've never been omnitrans. Do you actually know what omnitrans means?

I'm hardly omnitrans, and I still do well in battles. The whole ÿou must be omnitrans to fight"argument is simply an excuse for people who don't know HOW to fight well, who don't invest the time to learn... it's an excuse for them to nerf everyone who CAN fight so they feel better about themselves. I find it disconcerting and deplorable.

QFT

Nico was no where near omnitrans. I had most of the basics(tumble, focus mind), but heck, for the majority of the time (up until about a few weeks before I went inactive) I had only 4 trans skills. Sacraments, bonecrushing, planar, and forging.

Note that only two of those have a major impact on combat. Three, arguably with forging.

I think the current lay out is just fine, minus a few exceptions (focus body time). From a business standpoint, it's good to have pretty important skills take a lot of lessons, as it encourages credit purchases. However, these skills are not so vital, and not spread out at the highest training ranks. Thus, it is still feasible for someone to be active, and successful, in combat without being near omnitrans.

And yes, balance at omnitrans. To do otherwise would be moronic.

I've been doing fine, and I'm not omnitrans. Even before I had a decent number of trans skills, I still did fine.

Problem with daggers - yes, it needs slight nerfing. Change the super dagger time to eight seconds. The problem is also with mantakaya lock - however, that's an issue more for normalizing focus body times than for daggers themselves. Warriors can use it just as easily.

For me at trans discipline/resilience. I don't even bother reading disruption. I've fought Narsrim in his own demesne with daggers on. They aren't a big deal at all.

As for the rest of psionics - it's generally fine. Barrier could use a timer, though.

It really does seem that the biggest issue with this is the focus time of paralysis. Not even the shrug percentage of poisons, but entirely the nature of mantakaya. We should take a look at how it's cured. What would be effective, what would be fair?

Curing it is fine. Making discipline have less of a role in focusing time would be a better solution.

Pardon, the specific thing I meant was the focus body time in curing it, not that we should have an alternate cure.

I like the idea of focus time being impacted by discipline, but it is currently way too long for those who are inept.

I don't suppose this even warrants a response, since you obviously did not even read the post that I quoted in my previous post. I was responding to that, not saying that omnitrans was a necessity for combat (as you would also know if you read my other post in this thread).

I agree with Narsrim, someone shoot me.

I do agree that omnitrans is a bad word to be using. You don't need riding, or dramatics, or influence. Resilience, Combat, Discipline, Discernment to some extent, and Environment all have a huge impact.

In Achaea, I could fight pretty well with Woodlore, Metamorphosis, and Survival. Here, you need far more to fight at that same level.

Mispost

Agreed.

I think we've been doing pretty good so far using (supposedly dead nowadays) common sense. Is there really a need for such a definitive statement as 'balance only for omni-trans'? Perfect balance doesn't exist anyway due to different guild skillsets.

You should be able to fight with trans guild skills and a some common skills. Currently you need trans guild skills and high in some common skills. Things that are currently high up in the skillsets (Tumbling, A decent focus time, maybe some others) might need moved down more.