That statement is patently false. Plenty of people with tumble still die to timed insta-kills. Tumble keeps timed insta-kills from being rediculously easy to pull off. It forces the person with such a skill to use tactics, instead of just using the timed insta-kill for the easy win.

You mean a tri trans Ur'Guard will kick the crap out of a tri-trans Druid or Mage? Really Sylphas you are kidding right?

Sap using druids and Mantakaya dagger mages, will pwn a Tri-trans warrior. Unless the warrior is buffing up with weapon artie runes. Which if that is the case, I am pretty sure that they would have beefed up non guild skills as well.

So timed-insta kills are an easy win against anyone without tumble.
Thus tumble becomes a requried skill if you wish to engage in combat.
No?

tumble is a pretty important skill. It's kind of like focus mind, not necessary, but you'll make sure to get it as soon as you can

Without any resilience or combat, Hiriako kills me in three hits. Two hits if I don't clot fast enough.

Does Hiriako have runed swords? If so, I can understand, maybe. But if he/she's just using plain swords, and you're dying in 3 hits... I'm sorry bro, but you're not that good against warriors.

I'm a bard. Wtf kind of hindering do I have?

Actually, he's not. The warrior doesn't need skills to stand against a druid. The druid, however, needs combat.

No like prone skills or web enchants, gust all those work

Then take it up with Geb.
Me... I'm keeping out of the details

Absolutely. That's more or less the point I was going for in my overlong post that no one bothered to read.

Short and simple to understand is the way to go.

That statement is false, because there are other means of stopping timed insta-kills. Just that not everyone has access to all of the various means of stopping some of them, but everyone can acquire tumble. You have to remember that all insta-kills are not the same. Some can be stopped by certain actions that others can not be. One thing that is common to all of them is that leaving the room will make a person safe. Now considering the fact that there are multiple ways of hindering normal egress from a room, then tumble becomes the one ability that everyone can acquire to mitigate some of those hindering methods (walls, carcer, etc). And again, it is the one ability that everyone can acquire with various degrees of effort.

Oh, and my response to Revan was pointing out the fact that tumble does not make a person immune to timed insta-kills. Plenty who possess tumble still die to timed insta-kills. Though yes, for some classes that do not possess certain abilities, timed insta-kills would be pretty darn easy against them.

You are correct, however tumble does make it exceedingly easy to escape if the person is paying attention. Chasm for me is more or less just a tactic to make people run away, instead of kill them, since that's what happens 90% of the time.

Tumble really is a necessity for fighting guardians though. Soulless will OWN anyone without it.

Thank goodness. At least a few people do want balancing to consider more than just the near omni-trans level.

Way to be careful with your wording...the semantic nazis will have a hard time arguing with that!

The title says near omni-trans too.

I'm well aware some common skills are purely commercial/fun. Again, the issue I wanted to clarify was that very often among the Envoys a hypothetical balance issue involving someone who does not have transcendent discipline/resilience/combat/magic/etc is dismissed with "we only balance at trans". I don't agree with that.

Balancing that accounts for transcendence is definitely essential, but I don't think that should be our only concern.

What I said was the clear implication from your post. You needed to clarify. Which you have now done.


Its what (almost) everyone is saying because there is nothing else to say.

This is a completely artificial discussion. Its basic theory really, combat must be balanced at the edge cases.. i.e. demigod ominitrans with all artifacts, and also at level 1 with zero skill (thats the easy part).

It should then scale gracefully for all skill combinations between.
This of course, is the hard part.

It is being done this way, it will continue being done this way. The only option for discussion is the nature of that scaling.

Not telepaths. Remember that they can force a Soulless user to sit.